Confused about all the ALAC, FLAC, LAME, V0 talk
Jul 22, 2010 at 10:54 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 16

chnsawBrutality

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Like the title says.  I sort of understand what lossless is.. a little bit. 
 
I understand that some think it's worth to have all your music library in lossless, because hard drives are getting cheaper and it's easier to add and convert to other players when its in lossless. Plus, down the road you might have a nice stereo setup that takes advantage of the lossless library at home. That makes sense to me.  And that for portable players it's good enough to use 320kbs MP3 (not for everyone, of course), because of storage issues and most of the time you might not be paying 110% attention to your music, like in a work environment, outside walking, or gym. That makes sense too.  (is that the basics? I know it's not 100% true, but that's kind of what I understand from reading and lurking on here)
 
What I'm confused about though.  What's the difference between ALAC and FLAC? Both are lossless, correct? And where does the LAME and V0 stuff come in?
 
And, the only way to get your music into lossless is from a CD, correct?  iTunes gives it to you in AAC, which is better than MP3 or just as good, but not nearly as good as lossless.  So to get the best quality for your music library is to buy CDs?
 
Which format would be best when using an iPod, and iPhone, and a sansa Clip+/Fuze? All are used as portables.  Lossless for home PC, and 320KBS for the players?  ALAC or FLAC?
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 11:19 PM Post #2 of 16
AAC is worse than mp3 because it is typically crippled with DRM... FLAC is the most efficient lossless codec (considering battery/processor consumption and encoding/decoding time) I use MP3 because FLAC sounds no better to me... I think people like it because they think it's as good as a CD played through their stereo... but a Stereo amp is much better than an iPod amp/DAC (Digital Analog Converter) so the point is null, I would say it is just the amp they like. For your last three devices, use MP3 it will play on all. ALAC is useless because most portable players that use this codec have terrible signal quality (plug headphones into a stereo... you see what I mean) LAME is a specific type of MP3 compression executable... it tells your computer how to encode the MP3 file.
 
Jul 23, 2010 at 12:02 AM Post #4 of 16
 
 
Lossless means that, digitally, regardless of the format the file is stored in, there is no loss of data.
The raw digital music file format types in common use are AIFF and WAV.
The most common compressed digital music file format types are FLAC and ALAC.  They compress the file, much like Zip compresses a regular file, but more efficiently for audio information.  FLAC has different levels of compression, trading off file size for the amount of processing power required to compress and decompress the file. On average, a lossless compressed file will be about 50-70% of its original size. When de-compressed, no data has been lost. The bit rate for a CD-quality AIFF or WAV file is 1411 kbps (kilo-bits-per-second).
 
Lossy means that data is removed to make the file smaller and the sound is altered.
The most common lossy compressed file types are MP3, AAC and OGG.  Files are compressed by removing the data storing the least audible sounds first. This often means any sound above 16kHz (depending on compression level) is removed, as in music, instruments only produce sounds up to about 12-14kHz, so a person with good hearing and good equipment might just be able to discern this, but only with effort (in my experience anyway). File sizes end up about 1/10th to 1/3rd the original size.  Even after decompression, the data removed is still lost.  The highest bit rate for lossy files is (usually) 320 kbps and the common bit rates are 128 kbps and 192 kbps.  Compare this to the lossless figure above.
 
LAME is possibly the most famous MP3 encoding software, as over the years the author(s) have been constantly refining it, to the point that someone posted on Head-fi a 128k VBR file (I'll explain VBR later) and the RAW file and some people couldn't tell the difference between them. LAME has a number of settings, including the option to have a constant bit (encoding) rate -- "CBR" or a variable bit rate -- "VBR".  The latter is more effective as it adjusts the rate according to the complexity of the music.  It includes a number of presets, from V0 to V9, which are respectively the highest and lowest default options.  With the V0 setting, most people would struggle to tell that the music was compressed, without experience or training as well as high quality equipment.  With V9, the sound would be like listening to music over a regular analog telephone played by someone holding an old analogue radio to the mouthpiece.
 
What's best for your gear, I'll leave up to others suggest.  I hope this info helps though.
 
Jul 23, 2010 at 12:10 AM Post #5 of 16
i can hear the difference on my decently balanced home stereo and on my sansamod with caffiene ultra amp. and i am "that guy" who tries to backup everything i can in flac. because yes it is just like listening to a cd on your portable as far as the bitrate is concerned. true most generic or "popular" portable music players are junky and the average consumer doesn't notice. but this is an audiophile website and i'm going to chime in here and say that i think every little detail makes a difference.. even at my relatively entry-level of equipment
 
if you have the hd space i would recommend ripping a few of your cds in flac or alac (i recommend flac because yes it saves battery and tracks load faster). however if you primarily use itunes than alac may be your choice. it's just not quite as flexible with other programs and players as flac.
 
Jul 23, 2010 at 12:17 AM Post #6 of 16
Just giving more information here.
 
Choosing between ALAC and FLAC is not a question of sound quality, both are already perfect, nut of compatibility.
FLAC is supported by most software players except iTunes, ALAC is a Apple codec, thus has a total compatibility with iTunes, more and more 3rd party players read it, though less than FLAC. Except for iTunes and dBPowerAmp, I don't know any other software that can encode in ALAC.
On portable player, the onluy player that plays ALAC is iPod/iPhone, FLAC is more widely supported, except in Apple products.
 
Quote:
Lossless means that, digitally, regardless of the format the file is stored in, there is no loss of data.
The raw digital music file format types in common use are AIFF and WAV.
The most common compressed digital music file format types are FLAC and ALAC.  They compress the file, much like Zip compresses a regular file, but more efficiently for audio information.  FLAC has different levels of compression, trading off file size for the amount of processing power required to compress and decompress the file. On average, a lossless compressed file will be about 50-70% of its original size. When de-compressed, no data has been lost. The bit rate for a CD-quality AIFF or WAV file is 1411 kbps (kilo-bits-per-second).




 
Jul 23, 2010 at 1:30 AM Post #7 of 16
XRECODE makes superb ALACs from e.g. FLACs, preserving all tags including cover art,  ALACs on an iMod (5.5 Gen with the good Wolfson DAC) -- connected to a great amp -- will beat SQ of almost anything portable, and will be more fun to carry and use than the very few rigs that can best it. 
 
I rip 24x96 WAVs off of DVD-A's, then convert to FLAC -8, fully tag and embed album art (with various automated tools, of course).  I have lost nothing, so I delete the WAVs, since they will never be needed.
 
The 24x96 FLACs with tagging and art go in to my PC-based player.  I am still using FB2K, although I understand folks think there are better players out there, so I may switch.  This gives me perfect listening at home, with fine on-screen display (I use a USB-to-SPDIF converter and a SPDIF-input DAC).
 
I then down-sample (really a 50% "decimation", should be called binarymation) to 48000 and re-base to 16 bits, producing 16x48 ALACs, using XRECODE.  With all tags and art preserved, these go on an iMod (Apple OS, not rockbox) using XPLAY.  I use iMod+iQube, or one of RSA's amps ... and the SQ is jaw dropping.  Of course I started with amazing SQ on the DVD-A's.
 
Note iTunes is not in the picture at all.
 
One last trick -- the 5.1 mixes on the DVD-A's, mixed down in software to 2-channels, are almost always superior to the lame 2-channel versions that you find on the DVD-A itself.  Anyone who has listened to my Metallica, The Eagles, The Who, etc. tracks at meets usually agrees.
 
Jul 23, 2010 at 6:17 AM Post #8 of 16


Quote:
What I'm confused about though.  What's the difference between ALAC and FLAC? Both are lossless, correct?

 
Different tools for the same task.
ALAC is short for Apple Lossless Audio Codec, hence a product by Apple. While FLAC is short for Free Lossless Audio Codec, a free and open-source codec developed by one core developer and anyone willing to participate.
 
They are both lossless with pretty much the exact same features.
 
Quote:
And where does the LAME and V0 stuff come in?

 
LAME is an open-source MP3 encoder/decoder. V0 is one of its encoding parameters, variable bitrate at the highest possible bitrate.
 
Quote:
And, the only way to get your music into lossless is from a CD, correct?  iTunes gives it to you in AAC, which is better than MP3 or just as good, but not nearly as good as lossless.  So to get the best quality for your music library is to buy CDs?

 
No, there are some other alternatives to CD as well. Like buying buy and download online, ripping vinyl records.
 
Quote:
Which format would be best when using an iPod, and iPhone, and a sansa Clip+/Fuze? All are used as portables.  Lossless for home PC, and 320KBS for the players?  ALAC or FLAC?


Seems like MP3 is you only choice for a universal audio codec.
ALAC and AAC is supported by the iPod and iPhone, but not the Clip+ or Fuze. While FLAC is supported by the Clip+ and Fuze, but not the iPod or iPhone. I believe..
 
Jul 23, 2010 at 10:13 PM Post #9 of 16
Ah, cool.  Thanks for all the info, everyone cleared up a lot of stuff for me.  (except for you wavoman, you confused me
tongue.gif
lol just messing with you)
 
So do most keep FLAC for their home libraries?  And then use other formats on their small portables?
 
I would like to keep my CDs that I purchase from now on in FLAC, and leave it on my PC.  Just to keep for a backup, and i'm sure down the road I will spend the money on a nice home setup and the FLACs might come in handy at that time, who knows.  But for my portables, I think I'm going to stick with 320kbs MP3s.  Or, is there another format that's better and not a huge file size?  I have a feeling with my players, my RE0s, and my ears that I won't be able to tell a huge difference between FLAC and 320kbs MP3, so 320kbs might be the easiest
 
What would be the best way to accomplish this?  I found a guide for setting up EAC for FLAC, http://blowfish.be/eac/index.html
Should I follow this guide and use EAC?  Is there a better and easier way?  Or is EAC pretty simple?
 
Jul 23, 2010 at 10:17 PM Post #10 of 16
I reckon what you have in mind is a good plan. V0 is more efficient than 320 for the mp3s though. That would be the only thing I'd do differently.
 
Jul 25, 2010 at 6:20 AM Post #11 of 16
x2
lame V0 can save space compared to 320 kbs cbr.
For an example a 10 Mb 320 kbs would be about a 7 Mb lame V0.
There are many posts in this forum which would confirm there is no audible different between the two.
I encode everything V0 for my walkman and keep a copy of the original on a Storage Drive.
 
Jul 26, 2010 at 7:00 AM Post #12 of 16
Thanks for the help.  What do you recommend I use to rip my CDs to V0?  And what about FLAC?  I'm using EAC, but some CDs it's giving me errors, not sure if it's my drives or the CDs though.  Are there any other programs that are common and easy to use?
 
Quote:
I reckon what you have in mind is a good plan. V0 is more efficient than 320 for the mp3s though. That would be the only thing I'd do differently.


 
Quote:
x2
lame V0 can save space compared to 320 kbs cbr.
For an example a 10 Mb 320 kbs would be about a 7 Mb lame V0.
There are many posts in this forum which would confirm there is no audible different between the two.
I encode everything V0 for my walkman and keep a copy of the original on a Storage Drive.



 
Jul 26, 2010 at 7:31 AM Post #13 of 16
i use "iTunes Lame" program for mac.
It integrates nicely with iTunes.
 
Jul 26, 2010 at 8:21 AM Post #14 of 16
The best way to go is to use EAC and directly output FLAC, the FLAC files will be your archival/desktop copy, and then use V0 for mobile purposes.
It's probably your CDs, other software will make those errors too, except they won't report it contrary to EAC.
 
Quote:
Thanks for the help.  What do you recommend I use to rip my CDs to V0?  And what about FLAC?  I'm using EAC, but some CDs it's giving me errors, not sure if it's my drives or the CDs though.  Are there any other programs that are common and easy to use?

 
Jul 26, 2010 at 11:19 PM Post #15 of 16
Quote:
x2
lame V0 can save space compared to 320 kbs cbr.
For an example a 10 Mb 320 kbs would be about a 7 Mb lame V0.
There are many posts in this forum which would confirm there is no audible different between the two.
I encode everything V0 for my walkman and keep a copy of the original on a Storage Drive.

Using dBpoweramp, what are the differences between VBR, ABR, or CBR? VBR will be a smaller file because it adjusts the rate according to the music file, what Currawong said.  CBR will have it at a constant 320kbs, which will be a larger file.  ABR, How would it be different than VBR?

 
Quote:
The best way to go is to use EAC and directly output FLAC, the FLAC files will be your archival/desktop copy, and then use V0 for mobile purposes.
It's probably your CDs, other software will make those errors too, except they won't report it contrary to EAC.
 

Thanks.  So far i've only had one CD give me errors, and it's full of scratches.  Some mismatched the CRC number thing, but I did it again and it worked.  I have a few as FLAC, and I'm using dBpoweramp to convert them to LAME V0.  Everything is smooth sailing now.
 
Thanks a bunch everyone
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