Clarity or Forgiveness
Nov 29, 2003 at 8:03 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 21

pbirkett

Headphoneus Supremus
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A bit of a strange topic I possibly think, being as this is a hifi website, but I've found that having a really revealing setup can be a mixed blessing. I refer mainly to my headphones, the Sony MDR-CD3000 are *extremely* detailed, and revealing. I'd really miss them now if I didnt have them, but I'm also glad that I've got my Beyer DT531s and also my speakers.

Looking at my music collection, it seems to me that good recordings are the exception rather than the rule. When I have good recordings then its better to use the Sony's I find, however they *brutally* and ruthlessly let you know when a recording is bad, and when that time comes, my speakers and DT531s are a much better compromise I feel.

So, if you could have just one, what would you prefer to have? A system that has excellent clarity and detail but one that rendered not so hot recordings unlistenable? Or a system that was not the last word in detail and clarity, but still has a very enjoyable sound and one that was a lot more forgiving to poor recordings?

I'd probably choose the latter system (enjoyable sound, but not the last word in detail and clarity) simply because I feel that a fair majority of my music is not so hot quality. What about you?
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 4:34 PM Post #2 of 21

Edit: After I read my response I realized I didn't actually answer your question, and instead ranted about the need for best possible sources and amplification.
redface.gif
I'll just say that I don't think this is an either/or problem.
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 5:43 PM Post #3 of 21
Forgiveness. I had the cd3000's( as an example) and as much as I enjoyed their many positives, in the end, their treble prominence and consequent revelation of flaws in most of my recordings convinced me to sell them.
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 6:09 PM Post #4 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by sacd lover
Forgiveness. I had the cd3000's( as an example) and as much as I enjoyed their many positives, in the end, their treble prominence and consequent revelation of flaws in most of my recordings convinced me to sell them.


Does this mean that an overly strong treble on a set of recordings that were properly made would be acceptable to you?

Why are we in the audio listening world so averse to equalization? Especially when we clearly admit that headphones and speakers color the sound?
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 6:57 PM Post #5 of 21
I prefer brutally honest and detailed. Why? If the cans, amp, cabling, or anything else is glossing over bad recordings and making them acceptable to my ears, than they MUST be damaging the good or great ones and making them less than they could be. Since the majority of my recordings, like at least 80-90% are in the good-great category, I can live with the Stax making the few other ones sound like they were recorded, engineered, or mixed - poorly.

I think your solution you have listed is the best - for those who don't want brutally honest and super-revealing, get a second set of more euphonic cans that gloss over bad recordings and make them more enjoyable.
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 6:59 PM Post #6 of 21
I prefer detail and immediacy over warmth and musicality. For dedicated headphone listening, I demand the simplest and most focused audio rig in which resolution, transparency, and neutrality are paramount. Let the artists and recording engineers do their thing however well or poorly for I have no control over their artistic, creative, and technical decisions. However, I can exert as much control over how that sound is reproduced and I vote for clarity over forgiveness most of the time.
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 7:35 PM Post #7 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by Music Fanatic
Does this mean that an overly strong treble on a set of recordings that were properly made would be acceptable to you?


Why are we in the audio listening world so averse to equalization? Especially when we clearly admit that headphones and speakers color the sound?


First, a recording with overly strong treble would not be properly made IMO. I dont think this is what you mean though. I would accept a poorly balanced/ recorded treble if I like the music; although I have some music the balance in the treble is so bad I dont /cant listen to it. If you mean would I accept an overly strong treble due to the headphone; NO. I cant seem to tolerate that coloration. I can put up with a closed in soundstage, pumped up bass, minor treble distortions etc; but I cant handle tonal imbalances in the treble that makes the treble stand out unnaturally.


Its funny you should mention this as I have been looking into some sort of equalization. If I could equalize the treble on the dt880 THAT would probably be my favorite headphone. But the 3k would be another great headphone with equalization. I would have been perfectly content with either of those if I could correct those treble flaws. I like the hd650 so much because it isnt offensive in the treble and music is more listenable as a result.The 650 is wonderfully balanced but lacks some of the other two headphones (880/3k) clarity. But equalize the 650 and who knows how good you can get them. I dont listen through a computer however, do you know of any good outboard equalizers I could put between my player and amp?


In the end I just want to enjoy the music. If I can correct perceived flaws I would. I dont care as much about musical truth as musical enjoyment. If I dont enjoy my system, whats the point, no matter how well it tracks whats on those pits. I do believe there has to be a high degree of accuracy for musical enjoyment as well. So dont think I dont value accurate reproduction. I just dont value accuracy to the point of distraction.
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 9:31 PM Post #8 of 21
I'm discovering that as my systems improve, there seem to be fewer truly bad recordings. What may appear as a bad recording can also be an unexpected issue with the playback setup as well. As my systems increase in resolution, I'm actually better able to listen to recordings I would previously have dismissed as poor, simply because the higher accuracy is getting through the muck and letting me separate the music out. IMO really high clarity and forgiveness may be the same thing in a lot of cases. True accuracy in a system need not be brutal. OTOH, apparent accuracy (which is every bit as much of a musical signature as warmth) can be deadly.
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 9:54 PM Post #9 of 21
I've pretty much found (like Hirsch) that as my systems have gotten better, the better all my cd's have started to sound. Ever since I got the Audio Aero CDP(and even the modified Shanling) that you can truly have it all. Speed, detail, focus, dynamics, and suck every single sound out of every cd. While never sounding anything but warm, smooth, and very musical.
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 10:37 PM Post #10 of 21
Quote:

I'm discovering that as my systems improve, there seem to be fewer truly bad recordings.


Ain't that the truth! One of the most pleasant side-effects of system upgrades has been an increase in the listenability of virtually any recording. I think we are often too quick to judge what appears to be a "poor recording" when really what we have is a system or a specific component that isn't up to the task of reproducing it properly.

My suggestion is a source upgrade, you'll be amazed at how much a good/better CDP can improve the listenability of your music collection.

Mark
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 11:10 PM Post #12 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by ServinginEcuador
I prefer brutally honest and detailed. Why? If the cans, amp, cabling, or anything else is glossing over bad recordings and making them acceptable to my ears, than they MUST be damaging the good or great ones and making them less than they could be. Since the majority of my recordings, like at least 80-90% are in the good-great category, I can live with the Stax making the few other ones sound like they were recorded, engineered, or mixed - poorly.

I think your solution you have listed is the best - for those who don't want brutally honest and super-revealing, get a second set of more euphonic cans that gloss over bad recordings and make them more enjoyable.


I agree with you in the first part of the detail and brutality of reveling, but not with the second, IMO and IME the 80% of the recordings really sucks, and not the other-way around (at least on classic rock, it seems that in the 70's and 60's any drunk or junkie had access to the mixing consoles) go to jazz, and the situation is the opposite, so IMO all depends on the kind of music you heard...honestly I have music here that there is no way of hearing them with headphones....
 
Nov 29, 2003 at 11:41 PM Post #13 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by Music Fanatic
Why are we in the audio listening world so averse to equalization? Especially when we clearly admit that headphones and speakers color the sound?


Quote:

Originally posted by sacd lover
Its funny you should mention this as I have been looking into some sort of equalization. If I could equalize the treble on the dt880 THAT would probably be my favorite headphone. But the 3k would be another great headphone with equalization. I would have been perfectly content with either of those if I could correct those treble flaws. I like the hd650 so much because it isnt offensive in the treble and music is more listenable as a result. The 650 is wonderfully balanced but lacks some of the other two headphones (880/3k) clarity. But equalize the 650 and who knows how good you can get them. I dont listen through a computer however, do you know of any good outboard equalizers I could put between my player and amp?


In the spirit of this discussion, I'd just like to note that multi-band dynamics processing has really been catching on in the pro-audio world for a number of years.

With good reason, it's become an acknowledged excellent adjunct to traditional linear equalization (spectral processing), and in many cases may actually be the preferred tool for a specific task.

I'd hazard to guess that many members here at Head-Fi would really get a kick out of a high-quality digital mastering processor (like the one-box TC Electronic Finalizer 96K or dbx Quantum II), for Red Book playback in their systems.

Personally, I've only made baby-steps in this direction, but what I've discovered is that the world of signal and effects processing is really like a kind of rich and wonderful parallel universe in terms of traditional audio reproduction. And thanks to digital technology, for the first time, (new and used) high-quality gear has become relatively affordable for many home enthusiasts.

TravelLite
 
Nov 30, 2003 at 12:33 AM Post #14 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by pbirkett

So, if you could have just one, what would you prefer to have? A system that has excellent clarity and detail but one that rendered not so hot recordings unlistenable? Or a system that was not the last word in detail and clarity, but still has a very enjoyable sound and one that was a lot more forgiving to poor recordings?


I'd pick clarity. Since getting my new headphones, the recordings I enjoy more due to the better setup outnumber the ones I've discovered to be unlistenable by about 4 to 1.
 
Nov 30, 2003 at 12:45 AM Post #15 of 21
Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch
I'm discovering that as my systems improve, there seem to be fewer truly bad recordings. What may appear as a bad recording can also be an unexpected issue with the playback setup as well.


I'm in 100% agreement. I have one of my favorite recordings, the OC Supertones, and thru the CD3Ks it always sounded a little harsh. Then, once I got the KGSS and Stax on place I found I could then listen to it without the normal harshness. It is still very powerful, actually even more so now, but some of that harshness I found was dulled - even with the much more revealing Stax cans. Quite a paradox, but I think it is at least in part due to the fact that they so accurately present what is given to them that the harshness is due to the inability of the other systems to reprodoce the dynamics without making them harsh.
 

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