CIEM vs Universal Demo: What has changed for you?
May 29, 2018 at 9:45 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 22
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Let's discuss some of your experiences after committing to a CIEM after trying a demo of the CIEM.

How much did the sound change for you, whether positively or negatively?
 
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May 29, 2018 at 11:53 AM Post #3 of 22
I think he's saying after trying a demo of an IEM that can be made custom.

A lot of guys have tried the universal Legend X and decided to go custom route.
 
May 29, 2018 at 11:54 AM Post #4 of 22
Your question make no sense at all, how can someone demo a custom, you might not understand the word CUSTOM at all, do you mean demo the universal and then committing to custom

I thought that was obvious. What do I put in the title? "CIEM vs CIEM Universal Demo"? Custom In Ear Monitor Universal Demo. Quite the mouthful...

Demo already implies a universal form.
 
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Subtonic Audio Cutting-edge artisanal in-ear monitors for discerning listeners. Proudly designed and manufactured in Singapore. Stay updated on Subtonic Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
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May 29, 2018 at 11:55 AM Post #5 of 22
I thought that was obvious. What do I put in the title? "CIEM vs CIEM Universal Demo"? Custom In Ear Monitor Universal Demo. Quite the mouthful...
maybe it can be rephrased as "CIEM vs Universal demo" :)
 
May 29, 2018 at 11:58 AM Post #6 of 22
maybe it can be rephrased as "CIEM vs Universal demo" :)

Yeah, changed the title. Thanks for the suggestion.

Wondering if a deeper fit of a CIEM will lead a sound being perceived differently.
 
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May 29, 2018 at 1:17 PM Post #8 of 22
Wondering if a deeper fit of a CIEM will lead a sound being perceived differently.
Yes. Usually the demos are built identically to the custom but the custom build sits much closer to the ear drum. What happens is that the treble resonance peak shifts further to the higher end of the frequency range. Say the demo has a peak at 8kHz, the CIEM will likely boost 9 or 10 kHz instead. It is not easy to figure out which peak is actually a resonance because most designs are not very flat in the treble and most IEMs have multiple peaks. But in the end the perception will most likely change with the CIEM.
Most sound designers use couplers that simulate a very deep fit, so the actual design is usually meant for Customs and they will make sure that this is the best experience. In most cases, the sound designer is not involved with the final product, meaning he has no control about the design of the shell or the included tips. As a rule of thumb, Comply Foams will always decrease sound quality because no IEM was designed to sound good with them, simply because there are no measurement tools to accurately tell the outcome.
Higher isolation might be perceived as more bass and less sub-bass roll-off.

However, you can theoretically nullify the differences. You should not use silicone tips. Instead you can try to build your own custom foams from earplugs (cut them in half and stance a hole into them). That will usually allow much deeper insertion because they don't protrude. Usually, I can make demos sound exactly the same as CIEMs this way.
 
May 29, 2018 at 1:23 PM Post #9 of 22
Yes. Usually the demos are built identically to the custom but the custom build sits much closer to the ear drum. What happens is that the treble resonance peak shifts further to the higher end of the frequency range. Say the demo has a peak at 8kHz, the CIEM will likely boost 9 or 10 kHz instead. It is not easy to figure out which peak is actually a resonance because most designs are not very flat in the treble and most IEMs have multiple peaks. But in the end the perception will most likely change with the CIEM.
Most sound designers use couplers that simulate a very deep fit, so the actual design is usually meant for Customs and they will make sure that this is the best experience. In most cases, the sound designer is not involved with the final product, meaning he has no control about the design of the shell or the included tips. As a rule of thumb, Comply Foams will always decrease sound quality because no IEM was designed to sound good with them, simply because there are no measurement tools to accurately tell the outcome.
Higher isolation might be perceived as more bass and less sub-bass roll-off.

However, you can theoretically nullify the differences. You should not use silicone tips. Instead you can try to build your own custom foams from earplugs (cut them in half and stance a hole into them). That will usually allow much deeper insertion because they don't protrude. Usually, I can make demos sound exactly the same as CIEMs this way.

Thank you for the insightful response!
 
Subtonic Audio Cutting-edge artisanal in-ear monitors for discerning listeners. Proudly designed and manufactured in Singapore. Stay updated on Subtonic Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Subtonic.Audio https://www.instagram.com/subtonicaudio https://subtonic.audio support@subtonic.audio
May 30, 2018 at 10:09 AM Post #10 of 22
My well fitting CIEMs seem to be smoother with a bit more bass than the universals. Custom fit is much better than Universals, I can get comfy with universals but usually end up with a bit of soreness upon insertion, removal and afterwars if I've been using Universals for some time. That perfect fit from customs is why I prefer them.
 
May 30, 2018 at 11:58 AM Post #11 of 22
My well fitting CIEMs seem to be smoother with a bit more bass than the universals. Custom fit is much better than Universals, I can get comfy with universals but usually end up with a bit of soreness upon insertion, removal and afterwars if I've been using Universals for some time. That perfect fit from customs is why I prefer them.

Thanks for chiming in. Makes sense that bass would be louder as there is a better seal..
 
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May 31, 2018 at 7:00 AM Post #12 of 22
Hi!

After trying the whole Ultimate Ears range in universal form and then getting my UE11Pro eventually, I have these observations:

- thanks to the way better isolation - perceived much more detail and clarity in the music
- absolutely better bass impact
- soundstage is predictable - while I found that some tips can change a lot of parameters - you won't have that issue with customs.

While it's not a night and day difference, for me comparing the universal to the custom, the perceived sound quality improvement is easy 10-20% = significant enough to make a difference. Once you went custom and get a good and comfortable fitting - it's hard to go back to anything else (for me). I wish I would have gone down the custom route earlier.

Cheers.
 
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Jun 2, 2018 at 2:18 AM Post #13 of 22
Hi!

After trying the whole Ultimate Ears range in universal form and then getting my UE11Pro eventually,...

I was at one of the hundreds of local IEM shops here in Hong Kong and came across the UE6Pro. I am totally new to looking into IEMs (even IEMs since I have always focused on headphones only). I only had a chance to give it a quick listen so I didn't get to try any other UE other than another very expensive one, which I think is called UE Live.

Would it be possible for you to give a little summary on how the UE CIEM line is? Being new to IEMs and only started trying them days ago, I think I prefer one that includes a dynamic driver as opposed to just BAs. I like the sub bass rumble but also a nice tight punch on the rest of the bass and I don't mind sharp tight highs that others often find fatiguing. Lately I've been listening to a lot of Diplo radio shows, which includes some rap, electronic, (oops gotta to now).

Thanks.
 
Jan 13, 2020 at 2:19 AM Post #14 of 22
I'd like to take the opportunity to resurrect this thread by adding my own experience to this...

I owned a few different pairs of Universal IEMs that I then upgraded to their custom counterparts

Overall, I would say it's always a good move, especially for fit and isolation. the one thing that seems to always happen to me, is that I lose a bit of the high and gain a bit of the low frequencies when I go custom,though it's almost always noticeably only if I A/B with the universal version....
It happened to me with JH Audio JH16v2pro and Stealthsonics C9/U9 (my favorites, most neutral and reliable from a translation point of view).
I use them for work and casual listening and I can't tell you how nice it is to have total isolation and no fit issues, regardless of where I am and what I am doing.

I have also ordered custom tips for my U9, to see how much different this setup would be from the C9...

Will report once I get them!
 
Jan 13, 2020 at 4:42 AM Post #15 of 22
Acrylic ciems have been a negative to me. They don't seal as good as tips. Bass is definitely not guaranteed to be better unless you are willing to ship them back for the perfect fit.

Silicone ciems is where its at. Amazing isolation and will probably fit the first time. Does not need to be perfect.

--

The real negative of ciems is not being able to tip roll to alter the sound to your liking.

Wider bore tips for less bass. Etc.

Because of modern iems with multi-drivers have their complexities, they do not EQ well. They aren't made to Audeze-like standards. Heck there can even be different types of drivers nowadays and not simply a complex crossover.

So Physical mods like tip rolling is way better over EQ with iems.
 
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