[iamoneagain]

So after comparing crossfeed 3 to off setting (with HF filter off), I prefer no crossfeed at least for rock/alternative music. I feel too far away with it on. I like feeling like I’m close to the stage. More impact and my engaging.

So not sure if it’s because my Danacable on the Utopia’s is fully broken in but on quick listen, HF off with no crossfeed is now sounding best. Music has same weight on or off, but with it off there is more transparency. When I tested setting before it was with stock cable. But this is still just on quick listen. I may still end up back with setting on. So I’m not giving anyone advice since I can’t even make up my own mind.

Oh I forgot that I made one other important change since my prior testing. I added the Poweradd battery to the mscaler. When I listened to HF off in the past the highs were sometimes too harsh.

 

[F208Frank]

I just tested the 3 default crossfeed settings in roon and they all sound muffled compared to using Dave crossfeed 3. Could be that Chord upsampling works best with unaltered original source. Chord crossfeed is applied at the end after upsampling.

Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove headphone adapter from the Dave to disengage crossfeed when using speakers? If you have it set to 3 but no headphones plugged in or an adapter in the socket, crossfeed won’t be engaged in line out.

Cross feed is engaged even with adapter off if you unplug with crossfeed already set.

Example: adapter or headphone in, set to crossfeed 3, unplug adapter or headphone, crossfeed 3 settings still engaged for either external amp or speakers. There is conflicting info about this scattered around unfortunately.

 

[iamoneagain]

Cross feed is engaged even with adapter off if you unplug with crossfeed already set.

Example: adapter or headphone in, set to crossfeed 3, unplug adapter or headphone, crossfeed 3 settings still engaged for either external amp or speakers. There is conflicting info about this scattered around unfortunately.

You’re right. Here’s old quote from Rob.

Yes mia culpa; I had intended that crossfeed control would get disabled when not in headphone mode; but lots of people prefer the option to be there (I have once or twice found it useful myself with some speaker set-ups), so I decided to keep the mistake in place. But you need to remember to unset it though when going back to speakers.

 

[Malcyg]

Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove headphone adapter from the Dave to disengage crossfeed when using speakers? If you have it set to 3 but no headphones plugged in or an adapter in the socket, crossfeed won’t be engaged in line out.

As you have just discovered, if you use crossfeed with phones, disconnect them and, at a later point, wish to use your speakers, crossfeed is still engaged but you cannot see the setting on the Dave screen and there is nothing at all to indicate that it is switched on - so you have to insert a headphone jack, check the setting, change as necessary and then remove the jack again. It is a slightly unsatisfactory arrangement and I think must have been a design oversight.

I do wonder how often people in a speaker based system may have been getting sub optimal performance from their Dave because they have no idea that crossfeed is on. How would you even know if you never use headphones direct into Dave?

So, going back to my original question, has anyone found any good results using Roon for XFeed?

 

[GryphonGuy]

As you have just discovered, if you use crossfeed with phones, disconnect them and, at a later point, wish to use your speakers, crossfeed is still engaged but you cannot see the setting on the Dave screen and there is nothing at all to indicate that it is switched on - so you have to insert a headphone jack, check the setting, change as necessary and then remove the jack again. It is a slightly unsatisfactory arrangement and I think must have been a design oversight.

I do wonder how often people in a speaker based system may have been getting sub optimal performance from their Dave because they have no idea that crossfeed is on. How would you even know if you never use headphones direct into Dave?

So, going back to my original question, has anyone found any good results using Roon for XFeed?

It was simply a bug and at the time there was soooo much pressure on Chord to get DAVE released that I suspect they found the bug after manufacture and so decided to call it a feature when it is clearly a mistake.

Regards
GG

 

[Ards]

Good grief, I've been running with crossfeed (3) on my speakers all this time?!?!?! Will be very interesting to get back to 0 and see what I think on the sound...

 

[JaZZ]

It was simply a bug and at the time there was soooo much pressure on Chord to get DAVE released that I suspect they found the bug after manufacture and so decided to call it a feature when it is clearly a mistake.

It's actually a good mistake if you consider those who listen to electrostatic headphones or others which need external amplification.

 

[Malcyg]

It's actually a good mistake if you consider those who listen to electrostatic headphones or others which need external amplification.

Not really. It should be visible and switchable in both modes.

 

[JaZZ]

Not really. It should be visible and switchable in both modes.

It's certainly not ideal, but better than if it hadn't happened at all.

 

[simorag]

I just tested the 3 default crossfeed settings in roon and they all sound muffled compared to using Dave crossfeed 3.

Exactly, I tried several crossfeed implementations before getting the DAVE and all of them robbed way too much transparency, and that made me unwanting to try this DAVE feature for a while.
Then I tried it out of curiosity and now I am totally addicted to it, so much so that when I try other DACs the first thing I notice is that the soundstage is flatter and less cohesive (typical three-bulged imaging with left, right and center sound images somewhat disconnected).

Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove headphone adapter from the Dave to disengage crossfeed when using speakers? If you have it set to 3 but no headphones plugged in or an adapter in the socket, crossfeed won’t be engaged in line out.

As others has pointed out, I like that the xfeed can be used also with an external amplifier, as I am using one with my Abyss.
The confusing thing is that the xfeed setting is not shown in the display when you use the line out, which is prone to overlooking when you switch to loudspeakers.

Good grief, I've been running with crossfeed (3) on my speakers all this time?!?!?! Will be very interesting to get back to 0 and see what I think on the sound...

I did the same mistake when using my LS3/5a initially and I was dumbfounded by the lack of their typical pinpoint imaging and transparency. Good for you that you have now discovered it, I bet once you put it to 0 and listen to your loudspeakers again it will be like having a new DAC, enjoy !

 

[TheAttorney]

So, going back to my original question, has anyone found any good results using Roon for XFeed?

I've tried Roon's cross-feed and didn't like it for the same reason I don't like any of Roon's DSP functions: a loss of transparency that results in a slight dulling/flattening of the sound. Some people notice this kind of thing and some don't. One plus of Roon's CF is that you get an infinite number of adjustments, but that's not much use to me if the fundamental SQ takes a hit.

Back to DAVE, I think CF gives more value as the headphone's soundstage increases (particularly in width). I'm not surprised that a Utopia owner prefers CF off, but with the wider soundstage of my HEK SE's, I find CF essential for most recordings. I still prefer CF=2 overall. A touch of bass boost does my HEK's no harm, but CF=3 tips the bass slightly too far and the overall sound a bit too smooth - even though it probably does give the most natural soundstage. Of course all this is heavily recording dependent: on some I like CF=1 and on some CF=0.

For those not convinced about CF, I think it's a mistake to keep comparing it to loudspeakers, or to keep A/Bing on vs off. CF on headphones doesn't sound like loudspeakers and it doesn't have to! Treat it on its own merits. I maintain that if you continually use CF for a longer period, say, starting with CF=1, so it becomes the new normal, then you'll realise how wrong CF off was all along.

 

[F208Frank]

I have been floating around CF 2 and 3 with filter off on the DAVE. (Using tidal with most tracks at 44.1khz)

 

[iamoneagain]

So now that I know crossfeed sounds better with HF filter off, I’ll probably test level 1 and 2 and see if I like it.

Even with level 3 I can tell that it might be more natural than off but I’m so used to the headphone effect of music being in your face and hugging you. But at least now I’m open to the idea.

But as for as finding a roon setting that sounds as good as Dave’s, I don’t think it possible since it loses transparency. Think the Jan Meier’s setting sounded closer to Dave’s level 3. But then you can fine tune it to your liking.

If switching between external headphone amp and speakers, wouldn’t it make sense to leave headphone adapter in there so crossfeed settings show? Or would that cause issue with speakers or some other setting not to show?

 

[iDesign]

I've tried Roon's cross-feed and didn't like it for the same reason I don't like any of Roon's DSP functions: a loss of transparency that results in a slight dulling/flattening of the sound. Some people notice this kind of thing and some don't. One plus of Roon's CF is that you get an infinite number of adjustments, but that's not much use to me if the fundamental SQ takes a hit.

Back to DAVE, I think CF gives more value as the headphone's soundstage increases (particularly in width). I'm not surprised that a Utopia owner prefers CF off, but with the wider soundstage of my HEK SE's, I find CF essential for most recordings. I still prefer CF=2 overall. A touch of bass boost does my HEK's no harm, but CF=3 tips the bass slightly too far and the overall sound a bit too smooth - even though it probably does give the most natural soundstage. Of course all this is heavily recording dependent: on some I like CF=1 and on some CF=0.

For those not convinced about CF, I think it's a mistake to keep comparing it to loudspeakers, or to keep A/Bing on vs off. CF on headphones doesn't sound like loudspeakers and it doesn't have to! Treat it on its own merits. I maintain that if you continually use CF for a longer period, say, starting with CF=1, so it becomes the new normal, then you'll realise how wrong CF off was all along.

I suspect individual preferences for the cross feed have more to do with our perception of sound and the music genre(s) than the headphone itself. For example, the Utopia has a small soundstage so based on your post activating the cross feed should help in that regard. But as @iamoneagain writes, he finds it more “engaging” with the cross feed off. And I’ll make a good bet that as a listener he also appreciates the nuances of the sound engineer’s L/R mix and you lose that with the cross feed. Thats one of the reasons I prefer it off.

 

[JaZZ]

...and I’ll make a good bet that as a listener he also appreciates the nuances of the sound engineer’s L/R mix on a recording and you lose that with the crossfeed.

Except that what you lose with engaged crossfeed with your headphones you also lose with speakers without crossfeed (low-frequency channel separation), so this conjecture is illegitimate. What some might prefer, though, is the artificial widening of the soundstage at low frequencies through headphones during the reproduction of speaker-based recordings – and the sense of increased detail (true in some sense, although as mentioned it's artificial).