[Jawed]

The lipsync problem is already there with HUGO to some degree. And one of the reasons I prefer my DAC 2 when watching Concert Broadcasts online is that with HUGO I can see that the conductor's beat is sometimes slightly behind instead of spot on, or actually a wee bit ahead as he or she is actually giving a a sign for something that is about to happen.
It can be very disturbing.
It is much less of a problem with my DAC 2.

Hugo introduces a delay of 34 milliseconds. The interval between frames of video is 40 (25fps European TV) or 33 milliseconds (30fps most of the rest of the world and YouTube).

I have never watched any videos via DAVE. But if the problem is worse than with HUGO I also don't think you can fix it with such add ons. The problems lies in Delay /latency.

I have no idea why you quote me and bring up the latency topic. The quiet clicks that people report are due to very short interruptions in digital data.

Jitterbugs obviously add distortions

That's actually nonsense.

and are not a solution for this type of problem if I understand things correctly?

For the problem of clicks, ferrites and/or Jitterbug make no difference in my experience.

Now playing: Charlie Parker - Crazeology

 

[Jawed]

Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.

It's really simple: there is noise on a digital cable that's called "common mode noise". This noise appears equally on all of the wires in the cable. 2, 3, 4 it doesn't matter. Whether it's a simple SPDIF cable (BNC or RCA terminated) or AES or USB. This noise isn't part of the digital data.

That noise gets into the DAC and causes the "0V" reference voltage inside to wobble, so that it's no longer 0V. When it stops being 0V the analogue circuitry has distortion because the analogue circuitry was designed with the assumption that 0V is always 0V.

So RF noise (which is an analogue signal) gets into the DAC along the digital cable and then that analogue signal interferes with the 0V reference and that makes your music sound bad: you get a general brightness to the sound, you will hear sibilance problems, bass loses its depth, the soundstage collapses and the music seems clumsy.

Now playing: Victoria Williams - Frying Pan

 

[dmance]

Thanks @Jawed
At the risk of being flamed by the ignoble masses ...I will make it more plain. NONE of the digital solutions for Async USB do anything to improve the bits. Yes, that means all the USB cables, streamers, reclockers, isolators, quiet servers, PC fidelizers, etc. etc. All these do is change the character of the analog noise getting to the DAC. Yes, they can 'improve' the sound - but the bits are always the same. What they do is just decrease/alter the analog noise on the ground plane - and as @Jawed says - the DAC's analog modulation circuits alter the sound.

So ...you thought you were spending money on making sure the bits got to your DAC? No, the bits got there 100% perfect all along. The only thing you changed was alter the analog noise. Any solution that respects the electrical aspect of the problem and reduces the analog noise is going in the right direction.

The biggest problem is that test equipment that peeks at the analog output of the DAC is not at a high enough AD resolution to note the changes. Our ear/brain, however, is.

 

[Jawed]

USB cables are unique in that they carry signal and power unlike most digital cables that are signal only. Ferrites filter noise on the outer shield but the better usb cables shield the inner signal wires from the power. So the quality of the dc on your source can have an effect too. I’ve found both the Pangea and the Tripp lite usb cables to address these issues at a fair price. With a lot of listening from my N10 I still prefer the coax connection to the usb (the N10 is a very low jitter phase noise source)

The shield on a cable is a misnomer: it should act like a faraday cage protecting the inner conductors from environmental noise, but it's hard to find any cable where the shield does so particularly effectively. If the shield worked, then the ferrites wouldn't make any difference!

The shield makes absolutely no difference to any common mode noise that's put into the cable by the component that's sending the digital data.

This is why ferrites are the simplest solution for digital interconnects: the quality of the cable becomes irrelevant.

Now playing: Sodastream - Trouble on the Railway

 

[SuperBurrito]

[QUOTE="tunes, post: 13910842, member: 67991"
Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.

[/QUOTE]

I think many people here would benefit from watching Hans Beekhuzen's video on digital signal transmission called "How digital can go wrong". Digital signal transmission on a non-optical cable is not sending ones and zeros...it's an analog wave that can be really messed up for many different reasons.

 

[Jawed]

I am not quite sure how you conclude that the problems you have are entirely to do with Chord. The other common element is your PC. Maybe that is the problem. I have never had any issues like that playing Youtube, iTunes from my iMac via a crappy cheap usb cable or from Auralic Aries also with a crappy cheap cable.

The problem disappears entirely on Hugo TT when using the SD input. This is known in science as a control: change one variable and see if there's a difference. The HD input requires the Chord driver. The SD input doesn't use the Chord driver.

Apart from that, there have been loads of reports over the years about dropouts/clicks with Chord DACs which are not experienced when swapping to another DAC.

Now playing: Kristin Hersh - Counting Backwards/Handsome Woman

 

[Whazzzup]

I useTT HD port no dropouts, I think the problems with Dave are elsewhere, windows etc...

 

[tunes]

[QUOTE="tunes, post: 13910842, member: 67991"
Now I understand how ferrite cores around a cable can help eliminate RF noise but do not understand how a cable carrying a digital signal can really make a SQ difference. From an engineering perspective I understand how cables can alter sound in the analogue domain but in the digital domain it either works or it doesn’t.

I think many people here would benefit from watching Hans Beekhuzen's video on digital signal transmission called "How digital can go wrong". Digital signal transmission on a non-optical cable is not sending ones and zeros...it's an analog wave that can be really messed up for many different reasons.

[/QUOTE]
So why does anyone use USB at all. If optical were the only standard for digital transmission it would eliminate many sources of signal perterbation and EMI issues. What am I missing??

 

[Whazzzup]

well if you use servers like antipodes the preferred transmission is usb, its outstanding

 

[x RELIC x]

So why does anyone use USB at all. If optical were the only standard for digital transmission it would eliminate many sources of signal perterbation and EMI issues. What am I missing??

Data throughput.

 

[xxx1313]

You can spend a lot of money on hi end audio and not get good results but to get good results you usually do need to spend good money. This year I found the following products that are world class and are expensive; Blu2/Dave, Clearer Audio digital cables and Focal Utopia headphones.

Do you mean this USB cable (which is not expensive)?
https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/silver-line-usb-interconnect

If yes, with how many "super suppressors"?

 

[marcmccalmont]

Do you mean this USB cable (which is not expensive)?
https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/silver-line-usb-interconnect

If yes, with how many "super suppressors"?

I’m using their co

Do you mean this USB cable (which is not expensive)?
https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/silver-line-usb-interconnect

If yes, with how many "super suppressors"?

I'm using their Optimus reference coax cable with 2 super suppressors not the USB cable

 

[rayl]

I've had similar problems with my Hugo TT and DAVE over the years. Jitterbug and ferrites make no difference. I found the same as you, that by increasing the sample rate in the Windows audio properties (i.e. because I'm using Windows mixer), the soft clicks would stop.

WASAPI from Foobar is a complete solution.

Optical is also a solution in my system, working at any sample rate (upto 192KHz) with Windows mixer.

On my TT with the SD input, which does not use the Chord driver, there was no problem. The SD input also has no galvanic isolation and only supports 44.1KHz/48KHz sample rates, so it's really there for direct connection of phones/tablets.

With my DAVE, if I change track sometimes I get a few clicks within the first few seconds. On YouTube videos this is very common. It seems to me that DAVE (and TT before it, which did the same) is trying to get the PC to do something shortly after the music starts and this interferes with the transmission of music.

So, I have to conclude that the fault lies entirely with Chord. My old PC might be relevant, but this is a common complaint with Chord's USB.

I very much doubt a USB device between PC and DAVE will solve this problem, as the PC itself is being "interrupted" as it tries to send the music.

Jawed, it appears you are 99% correct. Thanks for your insights and in confirming that my issue is reproducible on other (your) units. Here's what I discovered:

My 2 USB regen devices came in today and I tested them. No difference. What is even more enlightening is something else I thought of trying -- it *DID* correct the problem, but has some tradeoffs.

On a whim, I uninstalled the Chord drivers and used the Windows 10 Creators edition built-in class 2 driver (derived from Thesycon code base, which almost every other non-Chord DAC seems to use)...

No more soft clicks when using Windows mixer in 44.1kHz!!! I played though 2 hrs of Mahler 3... which was more than enough to present clicks in the past. (Usually within about 10 minutes, I would hear at least one click).

The trade-off is -- for some reason, the DAVE is recognized as a 32 bit only device. If one uses Foobar or the like, no problem -- set the WASAPI output bit depth to 32 and it will pad the data.

But the trade-off lies with Tidal... Tidal refuses to enter WASAPI mode. I suspect it gets an error (bec if I set Foobar to 24 bit, it reports an unsupported error) and falls back to non-WASAPI.

My current theory is that it is not a "sample too late" due to timing problem (which USB regen should correct unless there's a big gap).... I am a bit baffled by why the upsampling with Windows mixer works around the clicks. (Maybe it's a missing sample issue and missing 1 sample out of 352k instead of 1 out of 44k becomes masked?)

I am less baffled by why WASAPI mode works -- I am guessing that's the focus of Chord testing and driver development as that's the main mode used for audiophile playback. This is definitely a bug in the Chord drivers. (Which I suppose is a good thing, bec it isn't a bug in inadequate buffering int he DAVE itself... Drivers are upgradable.... DAVE firmware [today] is not.)

Undecided whether to use the Windows included Class 2 driver or go back to the Chord driver. I am leaning towards Windows included driver bec the mixer upsampling is known to have some bad characteristics.... and de facto, most Tidal content is in 44.1kHz, so if I keep Force Volume on, even if it goes through mixer, it will be close to original PCM bits (if not in fact bit perfect).

I don't play DSD content and have not tested DSD with Windows included driver.

 

[Jawed]

Ironically, I had to install the Windows 10 Creators Edition driver last night, because I'd just installed Tidal. This was because in exclusive mode from Tidal I got a blue screen crash in the Chord driver cdh76864.sys. Twice.

It's too soon for me to report if, on my system, Windows mixer USB output with this version of the Chord driver behaves better or worse.

Now playing - Julien Baker - Appointments

 

[GryphonGuy]

First of all Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays "Tis the season to be Jolly"!
Second this is a fun hobby and everyone has the right to enjoy the music they like and the equipment they like, Vanilla, Chocolate or Strawberry enjoy!
Internet forums are a place for people to learn and ask for advice, accept what they like reject what they don't
I suspect many people have a piece of equipment in their system that is relatively high distortion and is masking the small improvements in CREDIBLE tweeks like power cables, power regeneration, interconnect cables, vibration isolation etc. Computers as a source, tube amps, and single driver speakers (as pleasant as they sound) are very high distortion compared to other options and the small improvements above are probably masked by distortion and noise. But all can sound very pleasant and your preference is fine for you I respect that, but in pursuit of accurate reproduced music trying to recreate live music or what the studio engineer was able to record I'd suggest lower distortion/noise equipment from one end of your sytem to the other including proper room treatments.
Merry Christmas I Hope Audio Santa is good to you!

And there is me thinking that enjoyment is what should be gained from the hobby.

Don't get me wrong. DAVE for me DOES provide highly realistic timbres of instruments in my situation. So I guess pleasing for me is also because the sound reproduction is perceived to be accurate because of the realistic timbres reproduced with my treated system.

Now has anybody got some cotton wool to treat the empty "room" between my ears so my headphone system doesn't echo so much.

Regards and compliments of the season
GG