CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:33 AM Post #211 of 25,747
  modern high end DACs arent in my opinion limited by the dac chip intself but by the analog output stage/pre amp or headamp that's in the DAC
 
most manufacturers list fantastic specs and they are not lying but what the DAC spits out after output stage into dedicated amp or headphone is degraded by the amplification.The dac chips themself make very little power,it needs to amplified and that adds noise.Another thing is you can theoreticaly make xilinx FPGA + dac combo capable of 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999db dynamic range but thats all limited by how good the power supply is,last thing,many amps and dacs suffer from crosstalk.If something have -90db crosstalk that doesnt rise within audible range thats good performance.For me crosstalk is just another form of distortion,so dac that measures 130db signal to noise but have -70db crosstalk at 18khz is in my book a 70db dynamic range not 130db.Best option is monoblock,some dacs like VEGA have monoblock like crosstalk performance,but that is very rare.
 
Yggy have perfect theoretical chips but the cheap 2200 dollar execution left it with 90db crosstalk so in reality its 15bit dac,an example how output stage and powersupply can affect theoreticaly superb chips

 
I still don't get what your concern is – technically. Why is the Dave limited in this respect? As I see it, one of its main advantages is that its DAC renounces an additional amplification stage for headphone and preamp purposes.
 
So in the end it has to do with crosstalk?
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:36 AM Post #212 of 25,747
   
I still don't get what your concern is – technically. Why is the Dave limited in this respect? As I see it, one of its main advantages is that its DAC renounces an additional amplification stage for headphone and preamp purposes.
 
So in the end it has to do with crosstalk?

 
I dont understand you,ask that question again?
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 10:58 AM Post #213 of 25,747
 
popcorn.gif
< educational mode
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 11:09 AM Post #214 of 25,747
   
popcorn.gif
< educational mode

 
ehh,this might be SHOCKING to you but one channel might module other one through power supply for example.
 
also output stage,preamp and amp is really the same thing,a signal amplifier,it always distorts and create noise.There is only one DAC in the world that doesnt have output stage and doesnt have common powersupply at the same time,the TotalDac Twelve,its two monoblocks and it chips put out enough juice so no op amp or discrete output stage is needed.DAVE isnt monoblock and as far as I know for it to even power amplifier a output stage/pre amp/head amp,call it whatever its same thing,is build in it.
 
if DAVE manages to 20bit REAL signal to crosstalk/noise/thd ratio at the output,I am going to be happy,if it manage 21bit I am going to be in state of ecstasy.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 11:50 AM Post #215 of 25,747
   
ehh,this might be SHOCKING to you but one channel might module other one through power supply for example.
 
also output stage,preamp and amp is really the same thing,a signal amplifier,it always distorts and create noise.There is only one DAC in the world that doesnt have output stage and doesnt have common powersupply at the same time,the TotalDac Twelve,its two monoblocks and it chips put out enough juice so no op amp or discrete output stage is needed.DAVE isnt monoblock and as far as I know for it to even power amplifier a output stage/pre amp/head amp,call it whatever its same thing,is build in it.
 
if DAVE manages to 20bit REAL signal to crosstalk/noise/thd ratio at the output,I am going to be happy,if it manage 21bit I am going to be in state of ecstasy.


What are you getting your knickers into twist for???
Nobody has heard DAVE, nor have there any details about the amp stage been released.
 
Chill man ...
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 11:57 AM Post #216 of 25,747
   
ehh,this might be SHOCKING to you but one channel might module other one through power supply for example.
 
also output stage,preamp and amp is really the same thing,a signal amplifier,it always distorts and create noise.There is only one DAC in the world that doesnt have output stage and doesnt have common powersupply at the same time,the TotalDac Twelve,its two monoblocks and it chips put out enough juice so no op amp or discrete output stage is needed.DAVE isnt monoblock and as far as I know for it to even power amplifier a output stage/pre amp/head amp,call it whatever its same thing,is build in it.
 
if DAVE manages to 20bit REAL signal to crosstalk/noise/thd ratio at the output,I am going to be happy,if it manage 21bit I am going to be in state of ecstasy.

 
think I need some more popcorn... this could be interesting.
 
btw... I'm one of the 'technically unchallenged'... by that I mean 'I haven't got a clue technology wise' but people are on my case to get ed-u-cated, so I eat popcorn in retaliation...
tongue_smile.gif

 
Jul 31, 2015 at 12:31 PM Post #217 of 25,747
   
think I need some more popcorn... this could be interesting.
 
btw... I'm one of the 'technically unchallenged'... by that I mean 'I haven't got a clue technology wise' but people are on my case to get ed-u-cated, so I eat popcorn in retaliation...
tongue_smile.gif

 
In the mean time, I can confirm that TotalDac D-1's Headphone Out is VERY powerful (capable of driving an ABYSS) and Very very Good (very precise) : I remember that my friend's HD800 connected direct to his TotalDAC D1-Dual headphone-out was better (to me and to my friend) than with his Cavalli LAU in between ! He was at shock since he just bought the Cavalli Amp !  
redface.gif
The Sound much more precise without the Cavalli, and still we had plenty power to spare.
 
As for the NAGRA's headphone-out, I did not get so much quality listening since it was at a dealer's shop, but I remember that I did not had so much extra power to drive the LCD-X. So, may be the NAGRA headphone-out is less powerful than the TotalDac headphone out ? I can't really tell.. (headphones and musics were not the same !)
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 12:44 PM Post #218 of 25,747
thats ridiculous,you guys have no idea about output stages or sources of crosstalk,I think you probably dont even know what crosstalk is or how much crosstalk dacs usualy have.Yet you act like if I am wrong and that this talk about noise and crosstalk from analog components is so stupid its funny
 
you know whats funny OK-Guy? I want to buy DAVE,and you know what will I do? I send it to Tyll from Innerfidelity so he measure it with his Audio Precision.I am very curious how it is going to compare to Yggdrasil and Vega whitch he have at the moment for testing.If the crosstalk or thd or noise is going to be anything less than  3500 dollar Vega then I am going to quote these posts you made and link the measurements from Innerfidelity.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 12:52 PM Post #219 of 25,747
  thats ridiculous,you guys have no idea about output stages or sources of crosstalk,I think you probably dont even know what crosstalk is or how much crosstalk dacs usualy have.Yet you act like if I am wrong and that this talk about noise and crosstalk from analog components is so stupid its funny
 
you know whats funny OK-Guy? I want to buy DAVE,and you know what will I do? I send it to Tyll from Innerfidelity so he measure it with his Audio Precision.I am very curious how it is going to compare to Yggdrasil and Vega whitch he have at the moment for testing.If the crosstalk or thd or noise is going to be anything less than  3500 dollar Vega then I am going to quote these posts you made and link the measurements from Innerfidelity.

 
Wait – nobody has said you're wrong! Where do you get that from? You're just hard to understand – at least for me.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 12:53 PM Post #220 of 25,747
Crosstalk per se is not important - but crosstalk non-linearity is. If I remember correctly, crosstalk was 120dB, which is fine. And negligible non-linearity. 
 
Distortion components are all below -150dB, so better than 24 bits. Noise is 21 bits. But these numbers, although very important, won't tell you how good it sounds. Noise floor modulation, which is important, is un-measurable, and with my APX555 the noise floor is at -180dB.
 
As to headphone drive - same current as TT, more voltage (>6v RMS) very much lower THD into low impedance loads.
 
Rob
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 1:01 PM Post #221 of 25,747
Thank you!
 
I'm interested in the Dave – as it sounds like it sounds good.
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 1:03 PM Post #222 of 25,747
  Crosstalk per se is not important - but crosstalk non-linearity is. If I remember correctly, crosstalk was 120dB, which is fine. And negligible non-linearity. 
 
Distortion components are all below -150dB, so better than 24 bits. Noise is 21 bits. But these numbers, although very important, won't tell you how good it sounds. Noise floor modulation, which is important, is un-measurable, and with my APX555 the noise floor is at -180dB.
 
As to headphone drive - same current as TT, more voltage (>6v RMS) very much lower THD into low impedance loads.
 
Rob

 
you cant even have 22bit becose of thermal noise within audible range at room temperature,if I remember the limit is 130db at 20khz,so these are extremly good numbers,very excited,thank you Rob
 
I want to ask,I want to produce music,I was thinking how much will DAVE benefit if fed with 32bit audio vs 24bit,people gonna jump here and tell me about 20bit limit of ADC but I make pure synthethic music so that does not apply it my case.So if I feed DAVE with 32bit is it worth over 24bit?
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 1:18 PM Post #223 of 25,747
  Crosstalk per se is not important - but crosstalk non-linearity is. If I remember correctly, crosstalk was 120dB, which is fine. And negligible non-linearity. 
 
Distortion components are all below -150dB, so better than 24 bits. Noise is 21 bits. But these numbers, although very important, won't tell you how good it sounds. Noise floor modulation, which is important, is un-measurable, and with my APX555 the noise floor is at -180dB.
 
As to headphone drive - same current as TT, more voltage (>6v RMS) very much lower THD into low impedance loads.
 
Rob

 
Thanks Rob.
 
Will DAVE be at CanJam London end of August in a listenable set-up ?     What is the voltage output of HUGO (to compare with the >6v of DAVE, since I owe a HUGO) 
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 1:28 PM Post #224 of 25,747
I think all goobicii is trying to say -- is that the analog output stage and power supply can make the best digital stage in the world sound bad, and conversely it can make an average digital stage sound very good.
 
Too many DAC's designers are great with software control, but then feed the output through some op-amps fed by cheap linear power regulators. i.e you have massively compromised the excellent digital work.
 
btw goobicii, its not just the TotalDAC 12 that has no output stage, I'm fairly sure the Trinity DAC does not either. Maybe this design aspect is very important (R2R with no output filter) when you consider both these dac's are regarded as the best in the world by those who can afford anything (and you will need to be this sort of person to afford either of them).
 
Anyway l am looking forward to the DAVE, possibly state of the art but within reach of the average audiophile. I can't wait for Rob to go into some detail about it's analog stage and how it works...
 
Jul 31, 2015 at 1:29 PM Post #225 of 25,747
Now a question from the GEEK inside:  Is there inside DAVE a simple 12 volt (or whatever voltage) DC coming from the AC power supply on which we could connect a (BIG) battery system to bypass the AC power and make DAVE able to operate on battery when it is away from the main.  I know this seems ridiculous 
rolleyes.gif
I agree, but sometime, I am in the garden far away from any main....
 
 
or... does someone know a "compact" UPS that can provide, from a battery, some good and clean AC curent ? 
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top