[Podster]

PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT BANNED STUFF. It's a great way to get the thread locked and people banned.

Right, always gives me reason to cue up “The New Kid In Town”. Some seem to think they are helping but it always seems to be just the opposite! Ever wonder why the PM was created?

 

[randomnin]

Well neutral/flat response doesn't really mean boring. It just means that you get to hear the song without any added color from the IEM, just as the artist & mixing/mastering engineer wanted you to. You can always add whatever you want more of with an eq and majority of the times neutral IEMs/headphones respond better to eq than heavily colored IEMs. Hope this helps.

I agree. We've been so used to V-shaped responses we think the bass is lacking in a neutral IEM. After all that's what Hi-Fi means, high fidelity, faithful to the original.

For me it's not loud enough if I have problems following bass guitars in the wall of sound (the same with lead guitars and the 2-4kHz range. Have to have that 5-10dB boost there, otherwise it's rather unlistenable, no matter how gracefully flat the raw graph is). And uncompensated flat signatures generally fall into this category of problems to discern important instruments, so V-shaped (or better yet Harman target curve) is the more "correct" sound as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm pretty sure most creators of music also have sound equipment with a bass boost and a 3kHz peak, so, if you're out to hear the same thing they did, you'd better also sport a similar signature equipment.
See these renowned makers' equipment's, that's marketed as "for studio use", frequency response graphs:
64 Audio A12t

Audio-Technica ATH-M50X - https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/audio-technica-ath-m50x.php

 

[april435]

PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT BANNED STUFF. It's a great way to get the thread locked and people banned.

Yes, sorry. I can delete my comment if necessary. It's just beyond ridiculous.

 

[B9Scrambler]

Yes, sorry. I can delete my comment if necessary. It's just beyond ridiculous.

It is, but how they deal with it is not our decision. Mods'll have a heyday if they stop by and decide to take action.

 

[april435]

It is, but how they deal with it is not our decision. Mods'll have a heyday if they stop by and decide to take action.

Edited my comment. I apologize for any inconvenience caused. I'm indeed new here and I guess I don't realize how severe the restrictions are.

 

[Wiljen]

Just ordered another one - hoping it is good as the last few.

 

[trellus]

I also ordered the NiceHCK lucky bag, picked the blue... description sounds enticing!

 

[Animagus]

For me it's not loud enough if I have problems following bass guitars in the wall of sound (the same with lead guitars and the 2-4kHz range. Have to have that 5-10dB boost there, otherwise it's rather unlistenable, no matter how gracefully flat the raw graph is). And uncompensated flat signatures generally fall into this category of problems to discern important instruments, so V-shaped (or better yet Harman target curve) is the more "correct" sound as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm pretty sure most creators of music also have sound equipment with a bass boost and a 3kHz peak, so, if you're out to hear the same thing they did, you'd better also sport a similar signature equipment.
See these renowned makers' equipment's, that's marketed as "for studio use", frequency response graphs:
64 Audio A12t

Audio-Technica ATH-M50X - https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/audio-technica-ath-m50x.php

Hello! Flat response is actually a word used very loosely. I don't think there are any Monitors/Headphones/IEMs out there that can be called absolute flat response 'technically', i.e, an absolute straight/flat curve at around 85db (which is where our ears perceive sound best according to the Fletcher-Munson curve). It is impossible to be that accurate in manufacturing. Of course there are going to be some frequencies boosted and some cut, even if they are minor. When pro audio manufacturers say flat response, what they really mean and do is, avoid boosting and cutting frequencies too much.

I produce, mix and master music professionally. In mastering, we don't master a song keeping in mind any particular sound signature. We generally EQ in a way that will help translate the song nicely on most consumer equipment and that can vary from song to song depending on how it is mixed and what the target audience is. Now imagine if a mastering engineer masters an EDM track keeping in mind the sound sig. of a Beats headphone. In that situation, he'll avoid too much bass in order to keep the headphone from a bass overload and when you'd hear that track on an affordable BA/multi BA IEM, you'd definitely feel that the bass is insufficient. That's why professional mastering/mixing engineers use monitors that are 'close to flat response' so that they can hear audio analytically in order to make critical decisions.

As a music listener, everyone likes and prefers different sound signatures and that's what keeps audio companies afloat, putting out new products on a regular basis for different audiences and that's great! It gives one so many choices. Of course as a music listener you may not necessarily need an IEM 'advertised as flat response' but you could always try and see if you like it. It might just become your favorite.

Below is a review of Audio Technica M50x by Sonarworks which is a professional Sound Calibration company. I got my AT M50x calibrated by them with a corrective EQ to target a flat response and now I enjoy them way more than I did before. The timbre and tonality of the instruments sounds way better. But that's just me, someone else might not like it.

PS- I love and own a lot of V-shaped IEMs too.

 

[Nimweth]

Y****o V2 NEED to be talked about. They’re everything I wanted from the Tin Audio T2 and more. Slightly boosted bass, natural mids, and, dare I say, neutral treble. If the T2 are just a touch too bright, the V2 are just right.

I’ll forever be saying that it doesn’t matter how many balanced armatures you put into an IEM - a single, properly tuned, well done dynamic driver will stomp all over the countless BA’s.

I won't mention this IEM on heras it is banned but there's a review of it on Amazon UK.

For me it's not loud enough if I have problems following bass guitars in the wall of sound (the same with lead guitars and the 2-4kHz range. Have to have that 5-10dB boost there, otherwise it's rather unlistenable, no matter how gracefully flat the raw graph is). And uncompensated flat signatures generally fall into this category of problems to discern important instruments, so V-shaped (or better yet Harman target curve) is the more "correct" sound as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm pretty sure most creators of music also have sound equipment with a bass boost and a 3kHz peak, so, if you're out to hear the same thing they did, you'd better also sport a similar signature equipment.
See these renowned makers' equipment's, that's marketed as "for studio use", frequency response graphs:
64 Audio A12t

Audio-Technica ATH-M50X - https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/audio-technica-ath-m50x.php

Thank you for that, very interesting.

 

[randomnin]

Hello! Flat response is actually a word used very loosely. I don't think there are any Monitors/Headphones/IEMs out there that can be called absolute flat response 'technically', i.e, an absolute straight/flat curve at around 85db (which is where our ears perceive sound best according to the Fletcher-Munson curve). It is impossible to be that accurate in manufacturing. Of course there are going to be some frequencies boosted and some cut, even if they are minor. When pro audio manufacturers say flat response, what they really mean and do is, avoid boosting and cutting frequencies too much.

I am a professional music producer, mixing & mastering engineer. In mastering, we don't master a song keeping in mind any particular sound signature. We generally EQ in a way that will help translate the song nicely on most equipment and that can vary from song to song depending on how it is mixed and what the target audience is. Now imagine if a mastering engineer masters an EDM track keeping in mind the sound sig. of a Beats headphone. In that situation, he'll avoid too much bass in order to keep the headphone from a bass overload and when you'd hear that track on an affordable BA/multi BA IEM, you'd definitely feel that the bass is insufficient. That's why professional mastering/mixing engineers use monitors that are 'close to flat response' so that they can hear audio analytically in order to make critical decisions.

As a music listener, everyone likes and prefers different sound signatures and that's what keeps audio companies afloat, putting out new products on a regular basis for different audiences and that's great! It gives one so many choices. Of course as a music listener you may not necessarily need an IEM 'advertised as flat response' but you could always try and see if you like it. It might just become your favorite.

Below is a review of Audio Technica M50x by Sonarworks which is a professional Sound Calibration company. I got my AT M50x calibrated by them with a corrective EQ to target a flat response and now I enjoy them way more than I did before. The timbre and tonality of the instruments sounds way better. But that's just me, someone else might not like it.

PS- I love and own a lot of V-shaped IEMs too.

Good write-up, especially the point about producers having potentially different gear in use and various needs in mind.
But the video and the Sonarworks graph from their article (didn't watch the video, hate watching, reading is faster; hope there's no difference between the two sources) actually proves my point. The Reference Audio Analyzer link provides a standard, raw measurement. The Sonarworks graph is already compensated, showing that the bass boost visible in raw from 20-80Hz is perceived flat(except there should have been more at 20Hz), but it should recede to 1kHz level quicker, but not lower than that like it regrettably does at 300Hz. The 4KHz boost is also flat, so that, Sonarworks believes, is also right. But there also should've been more receded treble after the previous boost, at 10kHz, similar to what Harman shows. So basically the discrepancies Sonarworks points out with their compensated graph are very similar to discrepancies between the raw RAA graph and the raw Harman target curve. That's proven by the fact that raw vs. Sonarworks and raw vs. Harman yield similar directions for improvement, as I showed previously.
Of course, I understand that when you say "neutral, flat sound" you might mean what you're hearing - the compensated graph inside your head, not the raw measurement made with equipment. But I like my graphs a lot. A whole lot! I believe them to be more reliable than words. So when I hear neutral, flat or V-shaped I think about how the raw graph looks. And a flat raw graph definitely doesn't feel right and Sonarworks agrees, Harman agrees, and I concur. But if you don't think flat raw is a good sound, then I'm just beating that straw man to death, to my great gratification

A corollary to all this would be that if someone is suggesting buying something that has a flat raw graph, she's likely not suggesting a high fidelity, close-to-original, what-the-pros-use-and-hear sound. Also, worth noting that I don't remember what gear was suggested up the post and quote ladder a few pages earlier, nor have I seen the raw graphs of that (but I highly suggest checking it out if available), I only remember the flat vs. V dichotomy being discussed. And here I am.

Sonarworks

Harman target curve (OE is for over-ear headphones)

Raw

 

[Dcell7]

Just ordered another one - hoping it is good as the last few.

D*mnit, i don’t need it but i am so tempted. Too much chi-fi that i haven’t properly used yet.

 

[mbwilson111]

I also ordered the NiceHCK lucky bag, picked the blue... description sounds enticing!

I will also be getting the blue.

D*mnit, i don’t need it but i am so tempted. Too much chi-fi that i haven’t properly used yet.

I know the feeling...but curiosity won over common sense.

 

[Animagus]

Good write-up, especially the point about producers having potentially different gear in use and various needs in mind.
But the video and the Sonarworks graph from their article (didn't watch the video, hate watching, reading is faster; hope there's no difference between the two sources) actually proves my point. The Reference Audio Analyzer link provides a standard, raw measurement. The Sonarworks graph is already compensated, showing that the bass boost visible in raw from 20-80Hz is perceived flat(except there should have been more at 20Hz), but it should recede to 1kHz level quicker, but not lower than that like it regrettably does at 300Hz. The 4KHz boost is also flat, so that, Sonarworks believes, is also right. But there also should've been more receded treble after the previous boost, at 10kHz, similar to what Harman shows. So basically the discrepancies Sonarworks points out with their compensated graph are very similar to discrepancies between the raw RAA graph and the raw Harman target curve. That's proven by the fact that raw vs. Sonarworks and raw vs. Harman yield similar directions for improvement, as I showed previously.
Of course, I understand that when you say "neutral, flat sound" you might mean what you're hearing - the compensated graph inside your head, not the raw measurement made with equipment. But I like my graphs a lot. A whole lot! I believe them to be more reliable than words. So when I hear neutral, flat or V-shaped I think about how the raw graph looks. And a flat raw graph definitely doesn't feel right and Sonarworks agrees, Harman agrees, and I concur. But if you don't think flat raw is a good sound, then I'm just beating that straw man to death, to my great gratification

A corollary to all this would be that if someone is suggesting buying something that has a flat raw graph, she's likely not suggesting a high fidelity, close-to-original, what-the-pros-use-and-hear sound. Also, worth noting that I don't remember what gear was suggested up the post and quote ladder a few pages earlier, nor have I seen the raw graphs of that (but I highly suggest checking it out if available), I only remember the flat vs. V dichotomy being discussed. And here I am.

Sonarworks

Harman target curve (OE is for over-ear headphones)

Raw

Hey! Sorry, I didn't understand your post very well but I wanted to point out that the Sonarworks Calibrated L&R graphs of the M50x are in PURPLE. Those lines are 'almost' flat with minimal small peaks and cuts of not more than 0.5dB throughout the spectrum. I think that's the best you can get towards a Flat Frequency Response (FFR) with a counter EQ curve in reality, like Sonarworks did. Most people can't even perceive a 0.5 dB boost in an isolated frequency (a simple test is to take a parametric eq to a song, select a frequency and raise the Q factor so that it focuses on that frequency only and raise the gain by just 0.5dB. See if you hear that particular frequency more).

The 2 BLUE lines indicate the Uncalibrated (Original) frequency response of the M50x's Left and Right channels. They have peaking boosts, some even of 6db, which are neither considered nor perceived flat and you can certainly hear them in a headphone.

What I simply want to convey is that a song has a dynamic frequency response(let's call it DFR). Consider an IEM's frequency response an EQ. When a song plays through an IEM, it plays through that EQ. The lesser the boosts and cuts, the lesser impact the IEM has on the original DFR of the song. More the boosts and cuts in the freq. response of an IEM, more the IEM EQ is added to that song.

Now when brands tune an IEM for V-shape, if you boost some bass for enjoyment, you will have to boost some highs as well in order to compensate for the boosted bass, to have instruments dependent on treble cut through. You will then tend to cut some mids as well because that is where the mud region of the frequency spectrum lies. This leads to a V-Shaped sound signature in an IEM. Sure it's fun and widely loved. A lot of times, this trick is used in Mastering of a song, if the mix received was boring. Now in theory, imagine a V shaped mastered song playing through an even more V shaped IEM.

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents about FFR in reality in layman's language. This no way proves every IEM ever advertised as flat, to be any good. You gotcha try and see for yourself. I also want to mention again that I really enjoy some V-shaped IEMs myself and am thinking of picking up a Hifi Boy OS v3 or Anew U1 now.

Anyway, I don't want to populate this thread more on this topic. We can always discuss more of this in a PM. Cheers!

 

[Animagus]

What's everyone's view on the Hifi Boy OS V3 as compared to Whizzer Kylin A-HE03? I hope I'm not mentioning a banned IEM here. Sadly there isn't a list which can let the newcomers know.

 

[HungryPanda]

I have the Whizzer and it is a good iem, I do not want the Hifi Boy as I have read it's bass is overpowering