Cayin Soul 170HA: A Beastly TOTL Vacuum Tube Headphone/Speaker Amplifier wth KT170

Oct 9, 2024 at 12:39 PM Post #346 of 854
Andy’s already responded in detail, but I will just add, it’s still a tube amp, when all is said and done. It’s going to generate heat and my room gets plenty warm because of it still. It’s not as hot as my WA23 all around, but it’s still a heater.

Can’t wait for you to get yours, though!
Definitely, you can't compare the HA-300MK2 and Soul 170HA against Class AB solid state amplifier with similar rated output, the two tube amplifier are warmer for sure
 
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Oct 9, 2024 at 12:59 PM Post #347 of 854
How to compare it's price being made in China vs Woo/ampsandsound ... in US, Viva... in France or Feliks in Poland?
What would Soul's price be when it'd be made in US? any estimation @Andykong? same MSRP?
What does this even mean? Are you asking if it would cost more to manufacture the item in a different area? Why would that even matter?

300B is Directly Heated vacuum tube, KT170 is Indirectly Heated vacuum tube. For this reason, 300B is hotter than KT170 when they both operated at its designated operation condition.

The power supply of Soul 170HAis significantly bigger (more surface area) and the rectifier tubes are moved to the amplifier chassis, that's why the external power supply of Soul 170HA runs chill but the external power supply of HA-300 is fairly hot.
Thanks! I'm looking forward to it being a little cooler in my office. I see my unit has tracking information from China. Looking forward to getting it in the next week or two!!!!
Andy’s already responded in detail, but I will just add, it’s still a tube amp, when all is said and done. It’s going to generate heat and my room gets plenty warm because of it still. It’s not as hot as my WA23 all around, but it’s still a heater.

Can’t wait for you to get yours, though!
After your listening session yesterday, the two of you were probably in a sauna! :wink:
 
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Oct 9, 2024 at 2:49 PM Post #348 of 854
What does this even mean? Are you asking if it would cost more to manufacture the item in a different area? Why would that even matter?
Exactly... if for sure, just wanted to get an idea from an industry pro, that's all.

Here's why it matters (to me)...
In a comparison of an Aegis to a US made tube amp the sponsor of that US brand mentioned that one cannot fairley compare both because Aegis made by a chinese producer would be ca. 5 to 7 times (if I remember correctly) more expensive if made in the US.

I found that a bit exaggerated, but hey this man makes amps for many years now.
So I wanted to get another opinion on that statement without mentioning it beforehand.

Someone in germany offers it currently for 7.4k and hasn't there been a discussion on pricing, some retailers aiming quite high, a few weeks back?

Whatever about price, back to heat dissipation, sorry...
 
Oct 9, 2024 at 2:53 PM Post #349 of 854
Here's why it matters (to me)...
In a comparison of an Aegis to a US made tube amp the sponsor of that US brand mentioned that one cannot fairley compare both because Aegis made by a chinese producer would be ca. 5 to 7 times (if I remember correctly) more expensive if made in the US.

Aegis with US parts (Jupiter branded components, locally made PCB boards) only costs ~2.2K USD (not even bulk pricing at that). IMHO, the US made Aegis would cost the same as the ZMF version on a 100% margin IMHO and more efficient logistics than a DIYer building the amp. Schiit's manufacturing model is a good proof of that
 
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Oct 10, 2024 at 2:16 AM Post #350 of 854
Cayin Soul HA170 Headphone Amplifier early impressions with Immanis:

This excellent, powerful KT170 based HP amp is beautifully built and drives the Immanis to new heights.
Chain is Roon>Aurender N200>Cen.Grand DSDac Deluxe>Cayin HA170>Imanis
Cayin has about 100 hours with stock tubes for this review

There’s ample smooth power delivery for Immanis with a lovely volume control, allowing for small incremental change.
Overall, there’s an excellent tonal response that has a lovely synergy with Immanis. There’s a real emotional connection between Immanis and the rest of the chain through this amp that amplifies (!) the best of the SQ of the Raals. A truly, lovely combination.

I found little difference between the “soft” and “dynamic” modes but when it comes to the “Triode” (TR) and “Ultralinear” (UL) modes, there’s a huge difference in presentation.
With UL, the soundstage is increased with a huge lift in dynamics and a harder hitting, more incisive attack.
In TR mode, there’s a softer, warmer more holographic presentation. I think it’s nicer for jazz vocals etc. The UL mode with Immanis can be too much of a good thing on some tracks/genres.

I’m really liking this amp….
 
Oct 10, 2024 at 1:15 PM Post #351 of 854
Finally able to try this amp. The first thing that comes to my mind is this amp is unmistakenly tuned by Cayin. In general the character is highly organic, smooth, plenty of meat on the bones, with "cayin" sweetness in midrange area.

Some things that impressed me the most are how big the soundstage, not just width, but also depth and height are truly excellent to create holographic feel. Secondly, how every notes seems clean, smooth, there is no harshness anywhere, but attack notes still solid, no dullness feeling. This is a pleasant surprise for me as I have hard time to enjoy various Cayin tube amps before (include HA300-II) due to lack of "sharpness" for attack notes, and soundstage felt a bit limited with a bit blurry pin point imaging.

Able to compared with Feliks Envy Performance (just for a brief though, like only 5 songs) with Full Music 300B tube:
- Both amp definitely have tubey character, balance-warm tonality, with "thicker than neutral" organic flavour
- Cayin 170HA push even further for the sweetness character, making Vocal become more "wet", with fuller meat on the bones, and also fuller bass body as well
- Envy Performance seems provide faster notes, a bit more "intense" from upper mid to treble (a little more aggressive), and a bit leaner from Midrange to Bass
- Soundstage is bigger with Cayin, in term of width and depth
- The smallest micro detail seems easier to hear with Envy Performance, not just in treble area, but also some textures in midrange and bass
- Cayin seems able to "fight" Envy Performance in term of how clean the black background of each notes, which is impressive for me. I know that I can just rolling to Elrog tube to "level up" the Envy in this area, but the price gap will also become bigger.

My favourite setting is with TR, as UL seems a bit messy in pin point imaging area, and I feel lost a bit of "magical" feeling with Vocal. Dynamic/Soft timbre only minor difference, I like dynamic more.

Tried with ZMF Caldera. I wonder how 170HA will perform with Immanis. Will try tomorrow.

---

Btw, is there any options to rolling KT170 tube?
 
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Oct 10, 2024 at 1:20 PM Post #352 of 854
Finally able to try this amp. The first thing that comes to my mind is this amp is unmistakenly tuned by Cayin. In general the character is highly organic, smooth, plenty of meat on the bones, with "cayin" sweetness in midrange area.

Some things that impressed me the most are how big the soundstage, not just width, but also depth and height are truly excellent to create holographic feel. Secondly, how every notes seems clean, smooth, there is no harshness anywhere, but attack notes still solid, no dullness feeling. This is a pleasant surprise for me as I have hard time to enjoy various Cayin tube amps before (include HA300-II) due to lack of "sharpness" for attack notes, and soundstage felt a bit limited with a bit blurry pin point imaging.

Able to compared with Feliks Envy Performance (just for a brief though, like only 5 songs) with Full Music 300B tube:
- Both amp definitely have tubey character, balance-warm tonality, with "thicker than neutral" organic flavour
- Cayin 170HA push even further for the sweetness character, making Vocal become more "wet", with fuller meat on the bones, and also fuller bass body as well
- Envy Performance seems provide faster notes, a bit more "intense" from upper mid to treble (a little more aggressive), and a bit leaner from Midrange to Bass
- Soundstage is bigger with Cayin, in term of width and depth
- The smallest micro detail seems easier to hear with Envy Performance, not just in treble area, but also some textures in midrange and bass
- Cayin seems able to "fight" Envy Performance in term of how clean the black background of each notes, which is impressive for me. I know that I can just rolling to Elrog tube to "level up" the Envy in this area, but the price gap will also become bigger.

My favourite setting is with TR, as UL seems a bit messy in pin point imaging area, and I feel lost a bit of "magical" feeling with Vocal. Dynamic/Soft timbre only minor difference, I like dynamic more.

Tried with ZMF Caldera. I wonder how 170HA will perform with Immanis. Will try tomorrow.

---

Btw, is there any options to rolling KT170 tube?
How many hours on each one?
 
Oct 10, 2024 at 2:13 PM Post #354 of 854
Envy already so many hours, definitely more than 200 hours. For the cayin I'm not sure, I think around 50 hours.
The Cayin needs more time on it. A lot of components for form, especially the capacitors. The details come in more and more.
 
Oct 10, 2024 at 5:38 PM Post #355 of 854
Could you install a KT150 tube in the Soul 170HA?
 
Oct 11, 2024 at 7:59 AM Post #356 of 854
Finally able to try this amp. The first thing that comes to my mind is this amp is unmistakenly tuned by Cayin. In general the character is highly organic, smooth, plenty of meat on the bones, with "cayin" sweetness in midrange area.

Some things that impressed me the most are how big the soundstage, not just width, but also depth and height are truly excellent to create holographic feel. Secondly, how every notes seems clean, smooth, there is no harshness anywhere, but attack notes still solid, no dullness feeling. This is a pleasant surprise for me as I have hard time to enjoy various Cayin tube amps before (include HA300-II) due to lack of "sharpness" for attack notes, and soundstage felt a bit limited with a bit blurry pin point imaging.

Able to compared with Feliks Envy Performance (just for a brief though, like only 5 songs) with Full Music 300B tube:
- Both amp definitely have tubey character, balance-warm tonality, with "thicker than neutral" organic flavour
- Cayin 170HA push even further for the sweetness character, making Vocal become more "wet", with fuller meat on the bones, and also fuller bass body as well
- Envy Performance seems provide faster notes, a bit more "intense" from upper mid to treble (a little more aggressive), and a bit leaner from Midrange to Bass
- Soundstage is bigger with Cayin, in term of width and depth
- The smallest micro detail seems easier to hear with Envy Performance, not just in treble area, but also some textures in midrange and bass
- Cayin seems able to "fight" Envy Performance in term of how clean the black background of each notes, which is impressive for me. I know that I can just rolling to Elrog tube to "level up" the Envy in this area, but the price gap will also become bigger.

My favourite setting is with TR, as UL seems a bit messy in pin point imaging area, and I feel lost a bit of "magical" feeling with Vocal. Dynamic/Soft timbre only minor difference, I like dynamic more.

Tried with ZMF Caldera. I wonder how 170HA will perform with Immanis. Will try tomorrow.

---

Btw, is there any options to rolling KT170 tube?

Continuing the impression, with a little different set up here and there. For now the set up consist of Rockna Wavedream Signature and Raal Immanis.

Feliks Envy Performance use standard tube set Full Music 300B and Ps Vane 6SN7 (in previous impression use RCA 5692 Red Base). Set to High Gain.

Cayin Soul 170HA use Tri Mode, Dynamic Timbre, and Medium Impedance Out. All standard tubes.

Here some notes:
- For the same loudness, if at Cayin volume at 1 o'clock, with Envy "only" less than 10 o'clock

- Cayin still perform more spacious soundstage, especially for width. Envy Performance really comparable with depth presentation though.

- Cayin has more relax character, a bit softer bite/impact, more "chill" feeling around while Feliks Performance provide faster and more attack notes, livelier, more "headbanging" feel.

- Both amp produce around the same meat on the bones. Full body presentation, with warm feeling, without any muddy problem

- With Cayin I can feel a bit more "ethereal" feeling, like high notes have more floating effect. While Envy is more "grounded" with more immediate notes

- Envy Performance has a little more information for the smallest micro detail, but Cayin perform well too.

- At certain recordings, somehow Cayin may produce lighter notes, especially upper mid to treble area. Not sharper, or harsher, just lighter than Envy.

- Bass at Envy kick harder, with more density. Bass at Cayin is a little bit softer and bloomier, with more or less same quantity as Envy.

All in all, 170HA is definitely by far the best headphone amp from Cayin I ever tested. Even able to catch up to Feliks Envy Performance (an amp that I really like). Personally for Raal Immanis, I prefer Envy all the time. However for ZMF Caldera, I think I prefer Cayin 8 out of 10 songs.
 
Oct 11, 2024 at 8:55 AM Post #357 of 854
Continuing the impression, with a little different set up here and there. For now the set up consist of Rockna Wavedream Signature and Raal Immanis.
How did you connect the Immanis to the Cayin?
 
Oct 11, 2024 at 12:56 PM Post #358 of 854
Continuing the impression, with a little different set up here and there. For now the set up consist of Rockna Wavedream Signature and Raal Immanis.

Feliks Envy Performance use standard tube set Full Music 300B and Ps Vane 6SN7 (in previous impression use RCA 5692 Red Base). Set to High Gain.

Cayin Soul 170HA use Tri Mode, Dynamic Timbre, and Medium Impedance Out. All standard tubes.

Here some notes:
- For the same loudness, if at Cayin volume at 1 o'clock, with Envy "only" less than 10 o'clock

- Cayin still perform more spacious soundstage, especially for width. Envy Performance really comparable with depth presentation though.

- Cayin has more relax character, a bit softer bite/impact, more "chill" feeling around while Feliks Performance provide faster and more attack notes, livelier, more "headbanging" feel.

- Both amp produce around the same meat on the bones. Full body presentation, with warm feeling, without any muddy problem

- With Cayin I can feel a bit more "ethereal" feeling, like high notes have more floating effect. While Envy is more "grounded" with more immediate notes

- Envy Performance has a little more information for the smallest micro detail, but Cayin perform well too.

- At certain recordings, somehow Cayin may produce lighter notes, especially upper mid to treble area. Not sharper, or harsher, just lighter than Envy.

- Bass at Envy kick harder, with more density. Bass at Cayin is a little bit softer and bloomier, with more or less same quantity as Envy.

All in all, 170HA is definitely by far the best headphone amp from Cayin I ever tested. Even able to catch up to Feliks Envy Performance (an amp that I really like). Personally for Raal Immanis, I prefer Envy all the time. However for ZMF Caldera, I think I prefer Cayin 8 out of 10 songs.
What tubes besides the power tubes, are being used on the Cayin?
 
Oct 11, 2024 at 12:59 PM Post #359 of 854
Continuing the impression, with a little different set up here and there. For now the set up consist of Rockna Wavedream Signature and Raal Immanis.

Feliks Envy Performance use standard tube set Full Music 300B and Ps Vane 6SN7 (in previous impression use RCA 5692 Red Base). Set to High Gain.

Cayin Soul 170HA use Tri Mode, Dynamic Timbre, and Medium Impedance Out. All standard tubes.

Here some notes:
- For the same loudness, if at Cayin volume at 1 o'clock, with Envy "only" less than 10 o'clock

- Cayin still perform more spacious soundstage, especially for width. Envy Performance really comparable with depth presentation though.

- Cayin has more relax character, a bit softer bite/impact, more "chill" feeling around while Feliks Performance provide faster and more attack notes, livelier, more "headbanging" feel.

- Both amp produce around the same meat on the bones. Full body presentation, with warm feeling, without any muddy problem

- With Cayin I can feel a bit more "ethereal" feeling, like high notes have more floating effect. While Envy is more "grounded" with more immediate notes

- Envy Performance has a little more information for the smallest micro detail, but Cayin perform well too.

- At certain recordings, somehow Cayin may produce lighter notes, especially upper mid to treble area. Not sharper, or harsher, just lighter than Envy.

- Bass at Envy kick harder, with more density. Bass at Cayin is a little bit softer and bloomier, with more or less same quantity as Envy.

All in all, 170HA is definitely by far the best headphone amp from Cayin I ever tested. Even able to catch up to Feliks Envy Performance (an amp that I really like). Personally for Raal Immanis, I prefer Envy all the time. However for ZMF Caldera, I think I prefer Cayin 8 out of 10 songs.
Hmm, a lot of this is the opposite of what I’ve heard from others, especially that the Envy hits harder in the bass, and that the 170 is smoother. Nonetheless, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts!
 
Oct 11, 2024 at 1:03 PM Post #360 of 854

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