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Cayin iDAP-6 - versatile new desktop transport

Discussion in 'Dedicated Source Components' started by project86, Oct 1, 2017.
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  1. piorasz
    Of course I tried it before. Did not work.
  2. Andykong
    We wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving Day.

    We want to thank @project86 particularly for starting this iDAP-6 thread and the other reviews and Cayin product threads that he has contributed This is an important platform for us to improve our product continuously and John has been very helpful in this aspect for the past two years.

    We want to thank every participant and subscriber of this thread for your patient and positive thinking to Cayin and our product. We'll continue our work on iDAP-6 to make it better.

    As a new relatively new comers to the HeadFi community, Cayin owns you all a big thank. We are looking forwards to continue the journey of sound with you in 2018.

    Keep in Touch! :beerchug::beerchug:

    Cayin thanksgiving 2017.jpg
    Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
    szczemirek and uncola like this.
  3. burdie
    received the IDAP-6 today (after 2 weeks plus of waiting). First thing to do is updated to latest firmware. Hook it up to my system and connection to my Denafrips Pontus Dac is using i2s via the diy 6" HDMI cable (which terminated using PS Audio pinout).
    set output as i2s & DoP and set Pontus i2s mode to PS Audio compatible (only variance is the inverted Mclk, but Denafrips designer said his DAC will work regardless on whatever mclk).

    1st two DSD file tested were DSD64 and DSD256 in dsf format, and both audio files works flawlessly.....
    Next tested SACD-iso, some very large iso file (larger than 2.8gb and above) will produced hiss sound but all other smaller iso file work flawlessly. I don't know this is a bug or not but such files have no hiss problem on foobar2000.

    Regarding the UI, the Menu button is less responsive e.g. on on screen keyboard, turning the knob the keyboard movement is lagging, wake up from dimmed screen using the back key or turn knob also slow, probably 2 seconds to wake up.
    Changing from PCM to DSD will pop, from DSD back no PCM no pop (may be I try again).
    tomorrow will explore more, like connecting to NAS and other features
    IMG-20171130-WA0184.jpg IMG-20171130-WA0185.jpg
  4. piorasz
    Thanks for the review.I am waiting for the next part. This one about NAS will be interesting, because it is the most errors in this section. BTW does not work Tidal from my favorite application Linn Kazoo - the next minus for iDAP.
  5. Andykong
    We have tested the gapless in our R&D lab and from what we measured, playback music file from NAS (via DLNA) is working. our audition has also confirmed that gapless playback from NAS is no different from gapless with local music (SD card or OTG USB storage).

    This first diagram is iDAP-6 playback test tone from NAS with gapless turned off, and we have screen capture from our Oscilloscope as record.

    Gapless Playback - off.jpg

    This second diagram is iDAP-6 playback test tone from NAS with gapless turned on, again we have screen capture from our Oscilloscope as record
    Gapless Playback - on.jpg

    As seen in the Oscilloscope readings, the gapless feature is working with NAS playback, the "gap" during track changing has disappeared completely.

    Can you tell me your playback condition in more detail? We'll try out best to replicate your condition if possible. Your iDAP-6 is connected to network via Ethernet cable or WiFi? Have you experienced any network connection problem with iDAP-6 in the past? Is you network heavily loaded? any non-computer devices such as game console or real-time video surveillance monitor/recorder ? Can you set the QoS on your router to prioritize the iDAP-6? You select the NAS files with iDAP-6 directly? or you use a DLNA app such as Bubbleupnp to "play" the file to iDAP-6?

    We have conducted further test after we recorded the perfect gapless playback on NAS files. We noticed the network connection quality and proper network setting play an important role in the gapless performance over DLNA, and connecting iDAP-6 to router through WiFi will have a higher tendency to cause a micro-stuttering during track changing, and the stuttering will likely be misunderstood as bad gapless implementation.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
    Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
  6. piorasz
    DEC23478-D789-4CD2-9D84-AD81732986C9.jpeg 105007A8-E397-4F10-8336-508FFF7047D2.jpeg
    Hello. Thanks for your interest in the topic. IDAP-6 connect to my network with a LAN cable. When I connect to my NAS (Netgear R6250 router with NAS function - dd-wrt firmware) directly through IDAP - no gapless problem exists. The gapless problem only occurs when using an external application (eg Bubbleupnp or other recognized applications) and iDAP-6 is a renderer.
    This error prevents fully functional remote control of idap-6. As we know Hiby Link does not give us full remote control over the device. So far, I've been able to handle every file-sharing device. At iDAP-6, the options ended :frowning2:

    A separate problem is that each iDAP-6 reboot will receive another Mac address (LAN cards). Please fix this error because it is a scandalous failure.
    In the pictures at the top, you can see different MAC addresses after reboot idap. The next absurdity is that you can see these addresses as a WLAN Mac and the wifi network is off. I checked on the router - these are LAN addresses.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  7. Andykong
    Thanks for confirming this part, I thought the Bubbleupnp should work, because that's the software I quoted when I wrote the original iDAP-6 proposal, I was confused by piorasz's complaint and assume that iDAP-6 is not fully compatible with Bubbleupnp. Now that you have confirmed that user can view NAS content on mobile and play it on iDAP-6 via DLNA, that meets our original design requirements already, and its a relief indeed.
    Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
  8. Andykong
    Ok, we are getting somewhere, thanks for the additional details, so gapless works fine with NAS in your setup, it doesn't work well when you are using a third party DLNA software to control the playback of iDAP-6, this is dramatically different from your original compliant.

    From what I observed, the gapless is still working perfectly, you have experience stuttering during track changing, and this is different from a bad gapless algorithm. The stuttering is likely caused by the DLNA app. because when Bubbleupnp "knows" the current song is going to end, it will "fetch" the next song and "push" the song to the renderer. Because the Bubbleupnp is connected to your network through WiFi, the latency is significantly higher then the ethernet connection, and this is where the stuttering kick in. So this has nothing to do with gapless function of iDAP-6.

    Cayin promised two features in our iDAP-6 sales material:
    (1) support DLNA
    (2) Remote control through HiByLink and that will significantly better then any Bluetooth remote control in the market

    From what I noticed, Cayin delivered both features.

    Cayin has never promised a dedicated app. custom build for iDAP-6. If your dealer has promised anything along this line, drop me a PM with details and I'll deal with it immediately.

    I don't recall we make any promise on gapless, but that is unnecessary, we should make it work, and its working right now.

    The so-called gapless problem you have experienced and complained fiercely are in fact issue of third party applications, and that can be a common problem with any third party DLNA app trying to control a DLNA renderer through a wifi connection. If someone can suggest a DLNA app that can solve this problem, I own him a big thank and would to buy him a drink anytime.

    Regarding the "each iDAP-6 reboot will receive another Mac address" issue, I'll raise the issue and find out what we can do, or cannot do in this regard, but before we do that, can you tell me exactly the trouble or inconvenience that will cost you when iDAP-6 "receive another Mac address"? Does it screw up your network security? or crash with other devices in the network? or disabled certain iDAP-6 functions?

    On the other hand, you have raised a series of complaint and allegation to Cayin during the past week, calling the iDAP-6 "probably a toy" and "the functionality is on a kindergarten level", I have no choice but to protect our company interest and handle your complaint "properly" instead of engaging a problem solving discussion with you - you leave us no room to start with. To be frank, in this particular case, your allegation is ungrounded and we can safely claim that Cayin has delivered everything we promised: HiByLink, DLNA support and gapless on DLNA.

    Did we promise a dedicated application? to control via an application with all functions? Not that I aware of. You just make this up and confused your request for new feature as something we own you. As stated previously, if we are engaging in a problem solving discussion, we certainly can talk about that. Since we handle your case as a compliant with serious allegation, the answer is straight forward: we didn't promise before and we are not going to promise anything today, so you don't need to "wait patiently for correcting errors", its not going to happen before your patient runs out.

    Ceratinly we have room to improve. For example, we probably should make specific alert somewhere in our manual and sales material that HiByLink will only manipulate local resources. There are also fine details in network management that we can improve, and we are more than happy to do that when our customers are willing to discuss. But when every issue is consider as our "error" or "mistake", we don't see any room of discussion, PERIOD.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
    Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
  9. piorasz
    But do not play gapless by Bubleupnp and other external DLNA applications. Summarizing this topic: iDAP-6 is playing gapless only and exclusively via Samba Protocol (no remote control). iDAP-6 Supports DLNA protocol but without gapless. This is what future iDAP-6 users should know.
  10. Andykong
    You can continue your ungrounded complain. Cayin will maintain our position that the stuttering problem with Bubbleupnp or other third party DLNA application has nothing to do with gapless.
    Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
  11. piorasz
    I'm glad you took me out of an unpleasant conversation. In fact, this thread about the traps that every new idap-6 owner will find. I will tell you what bothered me in the changeable Mac address.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2017
  12. piorasz
    I wanted to clarify something. Using the DLNA iDAP-6 protocol does not play gapless. Using the Samba protocol (SMB), gapless works. Choosing the NAS manually in idap-6 we choose the SMB protocol and not DLNA! That's why it works.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  13. Andykong

    For the record, when someone use a DLNA player app such as Bubbleupnp to "send" the NAS file ( DLAN Library) to the iDAP-6 (DLNA renderer) for playback, the gapless feature is resided with the DLNA player app, not the DLNA renderer, so complaining the gapless feature of DLNA renderer is ... irrelevant.

    Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
  14. Andykong
    Interesting, so two different brands are communicating to each with PS Audio "style" I2S and works 90% OK, a very good start indeed. If we can resolve the pop sound during format change, that would be the 100% achieved. From what I recall, you have your laptop connected to Matrix X-spdif 2 with USB, and then from the DDC to Denafrips Pontus in HDMI, so does iDAP-6 sounds in par with your previous setup?

    We should be able to optimize the responsiveness of UI as you have mentioned. The hissing sound with large ISO file is new to me, it doesn't make sense if there is no hissing sound with "smaller" ISO file, reading ISO file requires substantial resource, but the algorithm and processing should be the same. It make sense if it take longer to break it up into track, but hissing on large file is so strange. I'll request a control test and I hope our Engineer can replicate this problem.

    Last but not least, I remember PS Audio recommend a "short" HDMI cable for I2S connection, and they said 1M is more or less the limit. Now that I noticed you have DIY your SHORT HDMI cable, that tell you are serious into this game. We are glad to have you onboard iDAP-6 community. :beerchug:
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
    Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
  15. burdie
    As compare to Matrix DDC, I think IDAP-6 is slightly better than laptop+DDC.

    For the hissing sound on the larger iso file, I also felt so weird when I first noticed it (but i think i found the culprit, read below). I thought it have something to do with DST compressed iso, but end up they are different. For DST compressed iso, IDAP-6 will show message that unable to play the file with NO hiss, but it will continue to play next tract and pop up another message that unable to play the file...... until the whole albums finished, it will then stop attending. From software programming side able to program like pressing back button will cancel the remaining attempts to play the dst file?
    For larger iso file, it will play but produced hiss, end up it was the hybrid iso file that contains both stereo and multichannel tracks. So the system first read the multichannel but system unable to decode it then produce hiss? (just like in foobar2000 if play multichannel dts without plugin, you will hear hiss only). I am not sure the TOC of sacd-iso will direct to the multichannel first or the other way round....

    But I have problem setting up bubbleupnp on the Asustor NAS, bubbleupnp android app just don't pick it up, but it detect win 7 media streaming server.......
    My diy hdmi cable is about 6 inches in length, using 22awg cable with shield and drain wire on each 2 core, total 4 pairs. Should have make it 2 inches longer

    hdmi diy.jpg
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