Cayin HA-300MK2 (2022) TOTL Transformer coupled Direct Heated Triode Tube HeadAmp (Page 91)
Feb 12, 2020 at 6:33 AM Post #481 of 5,796
Anyone tried the Psvane Acme 300b on their HA300 yet? I think that'll be my upgrade 300b tubes once I settled on a good pair of 6SN7 (most likely Sylvania VT-231/6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boy or Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate)

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I have a short review in previous page, check that out.
 
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Feb 12, 2020 at 10:52 AM Post #482 of 5,796
Try the Psvane ACME 300B, that's a great pair of 300B tubes. To my ears, ACME 300Bs have a very open and precious sound, the combo of HA300 + ACME sounds like a mixture of high-end SS and 300B. I have tried TA300B, Elrog 300B, FullMusic 300B/Q, and ACME 300B recently on HA300, I'm confident enough to say ACME is so far the best tie with TA300B but in different flavors. I tested with TC, Susvara, D8000pro and Utopia+Dana all these headphones are handled extremely well under this combo.
Susvara: The overall sound becomes fuller and richer, the treble extension is further improved, the soundstage is about 30% larger than before. IMO, Susvara still fits this system the best.
TC: Previously, I do find the 300B amps generally make TC sound a bit too gentle, even with those TOTL 300B tubes (except Elrog). ACME is like a more refined or smoother version of Elrog (which sounds very clean but a little harsh in treble sometimes, an atypical 300B sound I would say). ACME is rich and warm in the bottom-end but clean and open in the treble. Thus, I feel ACME fixes some problems of TC without affecting the sound signature of TC by too much, the extra warmth in the mid-bass makes TC sound more "approachable". However, the bass attack is still not as satisfying as it with SS amps like headtrip.
Can you talk more about the Elrogs vs. the Psvane ACMEs? I've been eyeing the Elrogs for a couple months now for my incoming HA-300 and am pretty interested in them because their technology is different than all the other 300B tubes in the field.

I read a few reports on the Psvane ACMEs so far and they're all positive, but none of them are actually with thise HA-300. And very few of them mention the Elrogs.

Try the KR Audio Cole Bottle 300B tube. Very dynamic and killer bass.
Did you stick with these as your final choice in the HA-300 or did they just put on the best dynamic, killer bass show? And if so, how'd your 1st place pick compare on those fronts?

I have the one step down version:

And it is not solid silver.

But this cable(wireworldcable) is the first and only silver & copper wire that beat out my fav solid core silver, and my fancy silver Norne cable.

The technology is unique and proves its not just the metal or the any fancy winding.

This is one of the most resolving wire I have ever heard, with the other being the MIT Vero Reference cable (mitcables).

Neither of these are normal braided cables.
I no longer believe the hype of fancy braided cable.
I've followed a lot of your modding threads and also slightly kept track of your cables, so this is surprising to read. I've never been sold by the fancy braiding or thinking it had a big effect on the sound from companies like Norne or DHC as compared to the specifics of the wire they were using and the internal geometry of that wire.

What do you think it is about these WW cables that is beating out all your previous ones?

Have any current or former owners compared XLR vs RCA inputs? If I'm to interpret @Andykong's post from a while back correctly, it sounds like RCA ought to be the optimal input, all other things being equal.

I started comparing the XLR and RCA inputs this evening and was surprised to discover that I highly preferred XLR, but I'm guessing my findings are more about the quality of my respective interconnect cables rather than that of the amp's inputs. My XLR interconnects are Danacable Diamond Reference 1-meter, and my RCA interconnects are Danacable Diamond mk1 (non-Reference) 0.5-meter. The result using XLR was considerably punchier, deeper bass (always a welcome thing with a tube amp) and more extended treble and air, and generally slightly better all the way around. This was with the Abyss Phi TC.

Both connections were active simultaneously, going from the DAC to the HA300. It was easy and quick to volume-match by adjusting digital volume on the DAVE by +/- 6dB. Worth noting too is that the DAVE's preferred output is supposed to be RCA (though I doubt the DAVE's XLR loses much if at all to RCA in practice).

Anyway, if I could be half-way confident that the better results I'm getting via XLR is due to the interconnects and not the amp input, I may have to spring for another set of Diamond Ref's but with RCA terminations this time (since my current XLR pair are normally in use with my solid state amp), so was curious to know if anyone had anything thoughts...
I took part in those earlier posts by Andy and shared the signal path diagrams. The point was never that the RCA signal path would be better in any way, it was just that it was more direct beause a 300B tube is single-ended (it could be balanced, but that's not the point here wit hthe HA-300) and thus the middle of this amp is single ended. So going RCA in->6.3mm out is the least complicated and most direct path through this amp.

However, Cayin winds there own transformers and the XLR/balanced input transformer->SE signal->300B tubes->XLR/balanced output transformer was DESIGNED into the amp from the drawing board. It's not an afterthought and not half-assed implementation. And by leveraging the balanced input transformer and balanced output transformer, the designers would have even more control in delivering a target sound signature rather than being more exposed with the RCA input (source quality/choice) and RCA output (tube quality/choice).

So, your finding about the cables might just mean that you're finding the XLR input and XLR output of the amp are better than the RCA and 6.3mm ones. It could also be your cables, that's true, but when you've got ones that are already both "good", it doesn't add up to me that the clear preference you've found must be coming from the marginal differences in cables rather than the significant differences in amp signal path.

Do you have any other ideas what might be going on? It's an interesting topic, and those are nice interconnects and headphones you've got on either end of that amp :L3000:
 
Feb 12, 2020 at 6:24 PM Post #483 of 5,796
Can you talk more about the Elrogs vs. the Psvane ACMEs? I've been eyeing the Elrogs for a couple months now for my incoming HA-300 and am pretty interested in them because their technology is different than all the other 300B tubes in the field.

I read a few reports on the Psvane ACMEs so far and they're all positive, but none of them are actually with thise HA-300. And very few of them mention the Elrogs.


Did you stick with these as your final choice in the HA-300 or did they just put on the best dynamic, killer bass show? And if so, how'd your 1st place pick compare on those fronts?


I've followed a lot of your modding threads and also slightly kept track of your cables, so this is surprising to read. I've never been sold by the fancy braiding or thinking it had a big effect on the sound from companies like Norne or DHC as compared to the specifics of the wire they were using and the internal geometry of that wire.

What do you think it is about these WW cables that is beating out all your previous ones?


I took part in those earlier posts by Andy and shared the signal path diagrams. The point was never that the RCA signal path would be better in any way, it was just that it was more direct beause a 300B tube is single-ended (it could be balanced, but that's not the point here wit hthe HA-300) and thus the middle of this amp is single ended. So going RCA in->6.3mm out is the least complicated and most direct path through this amp.

However, Cayin winds there own transformers and the XLR/balanced input transformer->SE signal->300B tubes->XLR/balanced output transformer was DESIGNED into the amp from the drawing board. It's not an afterthought and not half-assed implementation. And by leveraging the balanced input transformer and balanced output transformer, the designers would have even more control in delivering a target sound signature rather than being more exposed with the RCA input (source quality/choice) and RCA output (tube quality/choice).

So, your finding about the cables might just mean that you're finding the XLR input and XLR output of the amp are better than the RCA and 6.3mm ones. It could also be your cables, that's true, but when you've got ones that are already both "good", it doesn't add up to me that the clear preference you've found must be coming from the marginal differences in cables rather than the significant differences in amp signal path.

Do you have any other ideas what might be going on? It's an interesting topic, and those are nice interconnects and headphones you've got on either end of that amp :L3000:
Elrogs are indeed quite different from other 300B tubes. To me, they do not sound like a 300B but more like a 2A3 or SS even. The resolution, speed and dynamic from Elrogs are probably the best that I have ever heard from 300B tubes. But as a trade-off, the mid from Elrogs sound less lively compared with ACMEs, also the treble is a little bit dry and maybe sharp from Elrogs. ACMEs are more refined and smoother, they have a very beautiful and fluid mid and the treble is very airy and smooth. The resolution and transparency of ACMEs are not as good as Elrogs but very close. Also, the bass from ACEM improved a lot after burn-in.
Let say it in this way:
Resolution & Transparency: ER>=ACME
Soundstage: ER=ACME
Dynamic: ER>ACME
Bass: ER>=ACME
Mid: ACME>>ER
Treble: ACME>>ER
Value: ACME>>ER
Elrogs are great as their own, but ACME is a no-brainer for the price. You can save a few hundred bucks with ACME and invest that money on cables to improve the bass and dynamic of your system accordingly.
If you really like the signature of ER300Bs then go for them, but it kinda loses the point of playing with 300Bs.
 
Feb 12, 2020 at 8:11 PM Post #484 of 5,796
So, your finding about the cables might just mean that you're finding the XLR input and XLR output of the amp are better than the RCA and 6.3mm ones. It could also be your cables, that's true, but when you've got ones that are already both "good", it doesn't add up to me that the clear preference you've found must be coming from the marginal differences in cables rather than the significant differences in amp signal path.

Do you have any other ideas what might be going on? It's an interesting topic, and those are nice interconnects and headphones you've got on either end of that amp

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree, it does sound like the XLR "conversions" being done in the amp are of a very high quality. I think the only way to know for sure (or at least to be "more sure") will be to use two interconnects that are identical except for their terminations and compare them side-by-side. Maybe two pairs of inexpensive interconnects from, say, Blue Jeans Cables or something similar, before moving forward...
 
Feb 12, 2020 at 10:48 PM Post #485 of 5,796
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree, it does sound like the XLR "conversions" being done in the amp are of a very high quality. I think the only way to know for sure (or at least to be "more sure") will be to use two interconnects that are identical except for their terminations and compare them side-by-side. Maybe two pairs of inexpensive interconnects from, say, Blue Jeans Cables or something similar, before moving forward...
Blue Jeans Cables is a solid choice to start with. I still like my Belden ethernet cable from them.

That "identical" part for 2 different interconnects is a rabbit hole. You already mentioned about your DAC's preferred output, and what you could end up showing is your DAC's preferred output. It's a system, so the amp isn't operating in isolation, but to get closer to showing the amp's best signal path you may need more DACs to test from, to get a more amp-focused picture of how the inputs sound. I guess you'd be getting into scholarly work there vs. just looking for the best combination. Could be good if you ever looked at changing your DAC down the road, though.

If I were doing this, though, I would definitely make sure to roll at least 2 sets of 300B tubes and 2 sets of 6SN7 tubes while I was rolling the cables. This way you can see how those inputs reflect the changes in tubes, which is giving you a hint of how transparent each respective input is. And then it'd be good to try different DACs for the same reason...

Good luck with it. Please make sure to post your results, it's valuable to all of us.
 
Feb 12, 2020 at 11:19 PM Post #486 of 5,796
Elrogs are indeed quite different from other 300B tubes. To me, they do not sound like a 300B but more like a 2A3 or SS even. The resolution, speed and dynamic from Elrogs are probably the best that I have ever heard from 300B tubes. But as a trade-off, the mid from Elrogs sound less lively compared with ACMEs, also the treble is a little bit dry and maybe sharp from Elrogs. ACMEs are more refined and smoother, they have a very beautiful and fluid mid and the treble is very airy and smooth. The resolution and transparency of ACMEs are not as good as Elrogs but very close. Also, the bass from ACEM improved a lot after burn-in.
Let say it in this way:
Resolution & Transparency: ER>=ACME
Soundstage: ER=ACME
Dynamic: ER>ACME
Bass: ER>=ACME
Mid: ACME>>ER
Treble: ACME>>ER
Value: ACME>>ER
Elrogs are great as their own, but ACME is a no-brainer for the price. You can save a few hundred bucks with ACME and invest that money on cables to improve the bass and dynamic of your system accordingly.
If you really like the signature of ER300Bs then go for them, but it kinda loses the point of playing with 300Bs.
Thanks a million for that deeper feedback. Really clear and helpful.

With the differences between them, it sounds like the two would make for good tube-rolling compliments. I think I'll take your advice and move on the ACMEs first, then take a shot at the Elrogs once funds free up.

One last question. How did you find each tube matched with the 6SN7 tubes? I mean, what were the best combinations and did you find either the ACMEs or the Elrogs to either be more transparent of their partner tubes capabilities or to be more influenced by them, etc?
 
Feb 13, 2020 at 7:17 AM Post #487 of 5,796
CRAP CRAP CRAP!! I just came home, and when I tried playing music, my Cayin HA-300 did not play any music! Nothing is going through it via RCA interconnect, and my right 300b tube is out.

I switched the two 300bs tube and the one that didn't light up stayed off.

I switched out both 300b tube with another set of 300b tubes, and while they light up, I'm still not getting any sound or even any VU meter.

To rule out any other components, I took out my old Drop THX AAA 789, and music played normally on them.

This is INCREDIBLY frustrating!! This amp is only from November and I am getting NOTHING now!
 
Feb 13, 2020 at 8:22 AM Post #488 of 5,796
CRAP CRAP CRAP!! I just came home, and when I tried playing music, my Cayin HA-300 did not play any music! Nothing is going through it via RCA interconnect, and my right 300b tube is out.

I switched the two 300bs tube and the one that didn't light up stayed off.

I switched out both 300b tube with another set of 300b tubes, and while they light up, I'm still not getting any sound or even any VU meter.

To rule out any other components, I took out my old Drop THX AAA 789, and music played normally on them.

This is INCREDIBLY frustrating!! This amp is only from November and I am getting NOTHING now!

It’s quit similar to a problem I had two months ago.

The right 300B tube died as I switched on the amp and then went silent.

My dealer (in Norway) did fix it by changing a fuse in the power supply.
 
Feb 13, 2020 at 8:35 AM Post #489 of 5,796
It’s quit similar to a problem I had two months ago.

The right 300B tube died as I switched on the amp and then went silent.

My dealer (in Norway) did fix it by changing a fuse in the power supply.

Damnit, I bought it used and the dealer that the original guy bought it is in New York. I'm in Los Angeles!
 
Feb 13, 2020 at 9:07 AM Post #491 of 5,796
Anyone tried the Psvane Acme 300b on their HA300 yet? I think that'll be my upgrade 300b tubes once I settled on a good pair of 6SN7 (most likely Sylvania VT-231/6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boy or Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate)


I have not tried the Acme but I do use Psvane WE Series WE300B. Compared to Full Music they are significant more transparent, dynamic and joyful with an articulated bass.

The reason I didn´t go for Acme is that the dealer told me they bring the stage closer and that the WE300B is slightly warmer in the midrange.
 
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Feb 13, 2020 at 6:18 PM Post #492 of 5,796
Sigh, well, I managed to convince the guy I bought it for a refund and I returned it.

I think I'll buy the Ha-300 straight from the Musictek dealer, unless you guys can suggest much better 300b Amp in the same price range.

The question is, am I going to have to worry about the long term reliability of the Ha-300? This was stressful as hell.
 
Feb 13, 2020 at 10:25 PM Post #493 of 5,796
Sigh, well, I managed to convince the guy I bought it for a refund and I returned it.

I think I'll buy the Ha-300 straight from the Musictek dealer, unless you guys can suggest much better 300b Amp in the same price range.

The question is, am I going to have to worry about the long term reliability of the Ha-300? This was stressful as hell.
Wow , bet its just a tiny thing yo replace.
 
Feb 16, 2020 at 4:01 AM Post #494 of 5,796
You know, one thing I don't quite understand is how to read Cayin's headphone power ratings. Why is it written as a "mW number + mW number" for both Balanced and Single-Ended. For example Balanced has 2200mW+2200mW for medium impedance and 3700mW+3700mW for high.

Single-ended, surprisingly, is showing more power, correct? How do you interpret 2400mW+2400mW (M) and 5000mW+5000mW (H)?I did notice that single ended is louder, but I always thought balanced would be more powerful than single-ended.
 
Feb 16, 2020 at 4:07 AM Post #495 of 5,796
You know, one thing I don't quite understand is how to read Cayin's headphone power ratings. Why is it written as a "mW number + mW number" for both Balanced and Single-Ended. For example Balanced has 2200mW+2200mW for medium impedance and 3700mW+3700mW for high.

Single-ended, surprisingly, is showing more power, correct? How do you interpret 2400mW+2400mW (M) and 5000mW+5000mW (H)?I did notice that single ended is louder, but I always thought balanced would be more powerful than single-ended.
2400 = 2.4 watts , but I just use my hearing not go by numbers and symbols.
 

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