[Whitigir]

1. You can charge and playback C9 at the same time before the batteries is fully charged. 18650 Lithium battery charge control is divided into two phases. The first phase is constant current charging. When the battery voltage is lower than 4.2 V, the charger will charge with a constant current. The second stage is the constant voltage charging stage, when the battery voltage reaches 4.2 V, due to the characteristics of the lithium battery, if the voltage is high, it will be damaged, the charger will fix the voltage at 4.2 V, and the charging current will gradually decrease. Therefore, if you charge and playback at the same time and your charging rate is faster than discharge rate, the 18650 batteries will reach 4.2V eventually. The problem is, when you continue to charge and playback at this moment, C9 power management cannot enter the constant voltage charge stage, this will put C9 into protection mode. You can revoke C9 from protection mode by disconnecting everything and charge it for 10 second. You are advised to disconnect C9 from charging when the fourth battery LED is flashing in these circumstances

From this official specification. Seems feasible that Building a dedicated Linear regulated Power supply and modify the C9 to have the ability to take the LPSU will solve it power supply issues.

Dual rails with ground split will allow it to have a dedicated dual rails of LPSU
However, battery is clean and have it own advantages

1. 1. Do not charge and playback both C9 and the connected source (let’s assume that is a DAP) at the same time. The four pieces of 18650 batteries are connected as a +8.4V and -8.4V power supply for the amplification circuit, and there is a set of ground line in between and that is connected to the C9 chassis. The charging circuit via USB-C has its own reference Ground connected to the USB socket. Be reminded that these two Ground are completely independent. If C9 and the DAP are charge and play at the same time, the power supply Ground (C9 Chassis) and charging Ground (USB socket) will short circuit by the charging cable and interconnect between C9 and DAP. C9 will enter protected mode. You can revoke C9 from protection mode by disconnecting everything and charge it for 10 second

 

[Bosk]

From functional point of view, when you listen to the amplifier while you are walking around, waiting or travelling on underground or bus, this is a portable. If the amplifier is designed to move and setup from one place to another place "conveniently" so that you can listen to the same amplifier at different locations, be it office, hotel, from study room to balcony and then bedroom, that is transportable.

The functional perspective provides a rough guideline on the form factor and weight of the gears to be classified as portable or transportable. To me, C9+N6ii is portable, Sony DMP-Z1 is a transportable, but YMMV. I am not surprised if someone consider C9 as "transportable" too. So maybe we can share our view so that we can have a benchmark in our discussion.

Of course, there are always extreme cases, if we use this gentleman as example, he is using a portable system, right?

By the way, miniaturisation is a very high cost concept, so the same processing power, a desktop PC is cheaper than a notebook computer, and a mobile phone that is only 1/10 of the weight of notebook computer will cost even more, per processing power. So a high-end transportable unit is not necessarily more expensive than a high-end portable unit.

Thanks Andykong for that post.

Yes those terms will mean different things to different people, depending on how much weight & bulk one considers reasonable to lug around. I suppose the point I'm making is that the C9 is rather big for a "portable" earphone amp, which perhaps helps make it an object of interest to many of us as I personally feel the "transportable" amp market has been neglected by manufacturers with a dearth of options out there.

No doubt you guys know the market and its' opportunities better than we do, so its logical to think this reflects a comparative lack of demand for such products. Yet this surprises me slightly and I can't be the only one hoping the C9 fires consumer interest and manufacturer attention enough that we might see a wave of other high-end transportable amps in future.

After saying all that, I'm rather a hypocrite having recently purchased the DX300 which is very much akin to the C9 in the sense that it too is a "plus-size" portable offering, though in my defense I plan to use it only as a transportable unit, much preferring the size of my A&K SR25 for on-the-go use. As that picture demonstrates though, we're all different..... and some of us more "different" than others.

 

[xand]

Frankly, all I hope is that it's a good long time before the C9 is clearly surpassed (by others - given what andy has said about business case this may be the top Cayin portable/transportable amp for the next 3/4 years)

 

[Andykong]

And that is why there is DMP-Z1. Honestly, if the C9 cant drive HD800S well enough, then I don’t see the point of buying the C9. I do have desktop system already Andy, just want to take it on the go. That is why I have been torn between 2 extreme planes, either staying with portable and something powerful enough like the MAX, DMP-Z1, and or sticking to Desktop amp, avoiding Stack.

I sincerely thought C9 would be the game changer since it had so much power

That is the problems, I can’t find any other headphones I like , and DMP Z1 drive it nicely. So that is what I am talking about, if Sony can do it, and if the C9 can’t, then why should I stack it up ? The DMP-Z1 runs on batteries and DC-External supplies when needed. Nevertheless, it can drive HD800s in both instances....May be it has enough swing aling and slew bahews ?

It is not the matter of going desktop though, I just want to stay portable.

This is interesting. Have you tried DMP Z1 with HD800? you like it enough? Is that your endgame/gamechanger for HD800? Have you tried DMP-Z1 with external power supply? Does it upgrade or downgrade the audio performance of DMP-Z1/HA800 pair?

 

[Andykong]

So does it mean you can't cooked C9 by plugged it into charger, play on a loop and leave it for days, like everyone does with their new DAP.

Nope, you cannot plug in a charger for several days. The protection circuit of 18650 is more specific than 3.7V Lithium battery commonly used in DAP and 3C mobile devices.

Start with a low battery capacity (1 out of 4 LED), charge your C9 and playback in Class AB, and feed with a source that does not connect to a USB charger. you should be able to charge and playback 24 hours non-stop, Alex has tried similar setting already,

I am actually wondering whether burn-in is at all necessaryy for C9.

You do. Discrete components requires more run-in time than Op-Amp based circuit. If you only collect your C9 recently, maybe you should run it for 50 hours and see what happens.

 

[Andykong]

I see I am not the only one with 800S! Thanks for the pictures

He is an early adapters, he bought A02 for his N6ii earlier on while "waiting" for the C9, and he shared several rounds of C9 photo in multiple Facebook Chinese headphone groups already. In one of FB group, he discussed the performance of HD800S, if you have friends who can understand Chinese, you can ask for their translation, but in short he is very please with the performance of C9 and HD800S, but please don't compare it with desktop setup.

 

[Andykong]

From this official specification. Seems feasible that Building a dedicated Linear regulated Power supply and modify the C9 to have the ability to take the LPSU will solve it power supply issues.

Dual rails with ground split will allow it to have a dedicated dual rails of LPSU
However, battery is clean and have it own advantages

Technically possible, but not desirable form audio performance point of view. A LPS will inevitably involve a transformer, be it EI, Toroidal or C-core, so the extension will be quite substantial in size. On top of that, the power filtering network of AC based LPS is very different from lithium battery based power supply and you cannot bypass the power filtering network in C9 unless your modify the circuit board, which is a whole different game.

 

[Whitigir]

does anyone know if the power button is a hold/release kind ?

This is interesting. Have you tried DMP Z1 with HD800? you like it enough? Is that your endgame/gamechanger for HD800? Have you tried DMP-Z1 with external power supply? Does it upgrade or downgrade the audio performance of DMP-Z1/HA800 pair?

You bet! LPSU upgraded the performances. Definitely an end game for on the go HD800S. The only thing is that it is heavy! This is what giving me hope for C9, to be similar, but can be paired with many other DAPS and a little more portable. Am I hoping for nothing ?

 

[Whitigir]

Technically possible, but not desirable form audio performance point of view. A LPS will inevitably involve a transformer, be it EI, Toroidal or C-core, so the extension will be quite substantial in size. On top of that, the power filtering network of AC based LPS is very different from lithium battery based power supply and you cannot bypass the power filtering network in C9 unless your modify the circuit board, which is a whole different game.

You are right ! There are need to by pass the filter for batteries on the C9. This stuff will need a whole schematic to tap into the traces!!! Only if C9 did allow an LPSU connection when the battery module is taken out

 

[Andykong]

Thanks Andykong for that post.

Yes those terms will mean different things to different people, depending on how much weight & bulk one considers reasonable to lug around. I suppose the point I'm making is that the C9 is rather big for a "portable" earphone amp, which perhaps helps make it an object of interest to many of us as I personally feel the "transportable" amp market has been neglected by manufacturers with a dearth of options out there.

No doubt you guys know the market and its' opportunities better than we do, so its logical to think this reflects a comparative lack of demand for such products. Yet this surprises me slightly and I can't be the only one hoping the C9 fires consumer interest and manufacturer attention enough that we might see a wave of other high-end transportable amps in future.

After saying all that, I'm rather a hypocrite having recently purchased the DX300 which is very much akin to the C9 in the sense that it too is a "plus-size" portable offering, though in my defense I plan to use it only as a transportable unit, much preferring the size of my A&K SR25 for on-the-go use. As that picture demonstrates though, we're all different..... and some of us more "different" than others.

The problem with headphone hobby, from the perspective of amplifier manufacturer, is the wide spectrum of impedance, sensitivity and driver characteristics (BA, DD, EST in IEM, Dynamic, Planar, AMT, electrostatic in full size headphones), this creates handling requirements that is so wide spread that we have to compromise and define our target audience carefully otherwise our R&D and manufacturing resource will stretch too thin.

If you look at Cayin's product line, we have 15 "active" products in our Personal Audio line up (N3Pro, FIVE Audio Motherboards with N6ii, N8, C5, C9, iDAP-6/iDAC-6ii/iHA-6 stack, HA1AMK2, HA-6A, HA-300), I bet we have one of the longest "electronic" product line in the market, and yet, we can't fill up all the gap as you have suggested. You can imagine when other manufacturers plan their product line, their priority probably will focused on items with larger or proven user base, and "transportable" become a very niche segment when compare to traditional desktop and portable products.

This is, to certain extend, reflected the Economic Inequality phenomenon: the richer will get more resource and become richer, the poorer will receive less resource and become poorer. This is inevitable for developing market.

 

[Andykong]

There are other headphones..

Personally I'm pretty sure that for the price I could have gotten a superior amp, albeit not one which is as convenient/transportable, and I liked the demo enough.

That's what I try to convey: if you plan to use C9 with a demanding load, audition before you pay for it, or at least wait for reviewers or impression from early adapters.

Frankly, all I hope is that it's a good long time before the C9 is clearly surpassed (by others - given what andy has said about business case this may be the top Cayin portable/transportable amp for the next 3/4 years)

That I can confirm, to certain extend. I have reviewed the 2021 R&D plan recently, our hands are full and yet we don't have any C9DAC, C9ii, C9Pro, C10 or whatever similar in our current R&D plan. Even when C9 becomes a big hit and we decided to follow up with new product, it won't start until 2022, and probably will hit the market by early 2024. In fact, the more realistic marketing plan is to develop a lower-tier product based on technologies and market awareness of C9. Consumers probably don't aware that flagship product, while expensive per unit cost, is not very profitable because of low production volume. Migrate the technologies of flagship products to mass market level is the way to go.

 

[Bosk]

The problem with headphone hobby, from the perspective of amplifier manufacturer, is the wide spectrum of impedance, sensitivity and driver characteristics (BA, DD, EST in IEM, Dynamic, Planar, AMT, electrostatic in full size headphones), this creates handling requirements that is so wide spread that we have to compromise and define our target audience carefully otherwise our R&D and manufacturing resource will stretch too thin.

If you look at Cayin's product line, we have 15 "active" products in our Personal Audio line up (N3Pro, FIVE Audio Motherboards with N6ii, N8, C5, C9, iDAP-6/iDAC-6ii/iHA-6 stack, HA1AMK2, HA-6A, HA-300), I bet we have one of the longest "electronic" product line in the market, and yet, we can't fill up all the gap as you have suggested. You can imagine when other manufacturers plan their product line, their priority probably will focused on items with larger or proven user base, and "transportable" become a very niche segment when compare to traditional desktop and portable products.

This is, to certain extend, reflected the Economic Inequality phenomenon: the richer will get more resource and become richer, the poorer will receive less resource and become poorer. This is inevitable for developing market.

I and others appreciate the work your company is doing to satisfy the unsatisfiable ("eccentric" audiophiles like me) and drive the industry forward into new territory. After reading through your post, have you considered condensing your product lineup?

I realize the irony of that question, that it might entail niche products like the C9 are first on the chopping block, but from what you wrote it sounds like Cayin may be faced with the dilemma many of us are these days - to cover as many bases as possible to an acceptable standard, or choose to sacrifice in some areas to perform better in others. Perhaps there is no simple answer but an ongoing dialogue in which community feedback and sales play their part.

My feeling is the high-end transportable market is under-represented but this is a purely anecdotal and non data-driven opinon. Sometimes it takes the right product to come along and fire consumer imagination for demand to really take off. I wonder what Apple's Airpods Max will do for the high-end headphone market for instance? Cannibalize sales of genuinely high-end alternatives perhaps, or simply increase the overall size of the market as younger generations discover the joy of better sound for the first time.

Sorry I'm rambling here a little, but as a mere consumer in this industry its fascinating being given an insight into how audiophile manufacturers like yours decide which directions to persue. Much as I would love to see more high-priced transportable offerings, its easy to understand the economic realities that proven, more profitable product lines must be given precedence so the business can afford the luxury of occasionally releasing something with more niche appeal. Much like Mazda with the MX-5 perhaps.

 

[Andykong]

does anyone know if the power button is a hold/release kind ?


You bet! LPSU upgraded the performances. Definitely an end game for on the go HD800S. The only thing is that it is heavy! This is what giving me hope for C9, to be similar, but can be paired with many other DAPS and a little more portable. Am I hoping for nothing ?

Spoiler

I tried DMP-Z1 in several meets and shows, but never run into a setup with LPS upgrade, so I am very interested to find out more about that.

If you are happy with DMP-Z1 + HD800/HD800S, and expect C9+HD800/HD800S to perform at similar level, then indeed, you can remain positive and give it a try. C9 is not an HD800 endgame/gamechager, but it will comparable to other high quality portable/transportable system.

 

[Whitigir]

That was why I asked “how come Cayin did not allow a DC input for C9”. If the battery limitations was all that you said it was

Yes, I understand your statement about Cayin perceiving the market, but as a consumers, they always love to have options. Certainly it doesn’t hurt to have an outlet on the C9 chassis and as you said, by pass the battery filters for the supplying rails.

 

[Andykong]

What a coincident, this is my home office stack. The Broadway is a very good amplifier, since you mentioned 1500 mW @ 32 ohms, so I assume we both have the same Balanced version.



You are in US right now? Hopefully we can travel freely by 2022, so stay safe this year, and looking forward to run into each other in the future, who knows, maybe we'll cross path at a CanJam before you come to China again.




Can't comment on a competitor product other than saying it is a very good amplifier. Michael is a personal friend and we have a lot of social and professional exchanges. One thing you should aware though, Broadway was designed for headphone usage while the single-end Broadway S was recommended for IEM applications. C9, on the other hand, takes IEM as our primary coverage.

I just notice that the picture I uploaded in one of the post disappeared, maybe I have make a silly mistake in the process. uploaded again to rectify my mistake.