[NiceGuyTom]

#497 - burning in atm

 

[swspiers]

For headphones like the HD650 that aren't (relatively) hard to drive, should using 1x gain with higher volume vs. 3x gain with lower volume make a difference?  I haven't experimented much, but seem to slightly prefer 3x gain with low volume seems as it seems to provide more punch, but could all be in my mind.

As long as the headphones aren't too sensitive, and you aren't picking up noise or distortion, there is no problem at all. Many will claim that amps don't sound great until the attenuator is opened up, but there's no hard and fast rule to that.

The crazy thing would be changing what you like based on what a handful of 'experts' tell you is best. IMHO and YMMV and all that

 

[zachawry]

Initial impressions with only 60 hours of burn in, but I do find the LC (fed by iPhone -> Mojo) to be extremely refined in sound, even on grungy stuff, which may be some of what you are hearing, or rather not hearing. More detail and less distortion?

Well, I am comparing it to the Hugo alone, which does have extremely clear, refined sound. But even on extremely well-recorded acoustic, classical, or ambient recordings, I still feel like the LC has a lot of room for improvement in the clarity/coherence department.
 
And hey, it's a $600 amp. Saying, "It's great, but I bet a $3000 amp made by the same guy must offer a lot more" should not be a controversial statement. 

 

[jarnopp]

 
Well, I am comparing it to the Hugo alone, which does have extremely clear, refined sound. But even on extremely well-recorded acoustic, classical, or ambient recordings, I still feel like the LC has a lot of room for improvement in the clarity/coherence department.
 
And hey, it's a $600 amp. Saying, "It's great, but I bet a $3000 amp made by the same guy must offer a lot more" should not be a controversial statement. 

@zachawry what headphones are you using?  Hugo (like Mojo that I'm using) probably has enough to drive most anything.  I've been mostly listening to HE-6s because, even though they were used, PO said they had about 200 hours on them, so I want to make sure they are broken in along with the LC.  So, Mojo is ok but not completely satisfying for the HE-6s.  With the LC, they really can sound good (bring it on, haters, who swear LC can't drive HE-6s).  That is with Mojo at 3v line out and 3x gain with volume between 11:30 and 2:30 for fairly robust listening, which I was doing a lot of just now to prove/disprove that the LC could drive them.  It sounds sweet at 11 for background listening, to me, without a loss of dynamics.
 
And, let me add, I was comparing the LC to the HE-6s driven by my Odyssey Stratos Stereo Extreme amp with the Hifiman speaker adapter.  This is a 70 lb., 150 w/channel amp with 2 x 400 VA transformers and 180,000 microF of capacitance.  It has the goods to drive the HE-6 with authority, and it sounds fantastic, but is inconvenient for me to use it as the primary headphone amp.  I would say it will require more listening, and to be fair, I have to take the preamp out of the chain or add it between the Mojo and LC for complete comparison, but aside from a slightly different sound sig (not to far off each other, actually), the LC can deliver 95-98% of the authority the Stratos does, and that is even debatable depending on how the ultimate sound sig comparison comes out.

 

[jarnopp]

   
This is an interesting question. Anyone?

My theory (and it would be great for an engineer or @runeight to chime in) is that 1x means you are using the source, only.  If you run out of juice from the source on 1x, the amp is not going to help you.  It's there to provide a volume adjustment and a balanced out if you are using that output.  If you have a hard-to-drive headphone where you will exceed the capabilities of the source, it's better to use 3x because then, whether needed all the time or not, the LC amplifier stage is actually in the mix and will provide headroom.  Theory only, but would be great to get confirmation or facts on this.  Thanks.

 

[adobotj]

For headphones like the HD650 that aren't (relatively) hard to drive, should using 1x gain with higher volume vs. 3x gain with lower volume make a difference?  I haven't experimented much, but seem to slightly prefer 3x gain with low volume seems as it seems to provide more punch, but could all be in my mind.

This is what I also prefer and do. Even on my intruder I always set it to high gain to be able to just hover at low volume. I also experience it to provide more punch and power to it.

 

[defbear]

I am beginning to think that if the amps absolutely need Burn-in as the instruction manual says, then they should have been burned in by Cavalli audio. It seems there has been a hundred different ways to burn the thing in and nothing is consistent. Like a Martin Guitar, the amps were not finished when received by the user but were in untested kit form for us to burn in haphazardly. Now we seem to have a lot of different Liquid Carbons with imbalance problems and what not. I still think my amp had more bottom end before putting it through "The Burning". I asked Alex about burning in gradually or all at 150 hours at once. I got a two word answer. "It's better". Perhaps he's sick of the entire project. When you get down to it, Cavalli, Schiit and everyone else is simply in Retail. Just like Best Buy. Throw Socks. The amps should have been finished in-house.

 

[jarnopp]

I am beginning to think that if the amps absolutely need Burn-in as the instruction manual says, then they should have been burned in by Cavalli audio. It seems there has been a hundred different ways to burn the thing in and nothing is consistent. Like a Martin Guitar, the amps were not finished when received by the user but were in untested kit form for us to burn in haphazardly. Now we seem to have a lot of different Liquid Carbons with imbalance problems and what not. I still think my amp had more bottom end before putting it through "The Burning". I asked Alex about burning in gradually or all at 150 hours at once. I got a two word answer. "It's better". Perhaps he's sick of the entire project. When you get down to it, Cavalli, Schiit and everyone else is simply in Retail. Just like Best Buy. Throw Socks. The amps should have been finished in-house.

As someone who had an amp sent back and repaired, I totally understand your frustration. But I have approached the LC with a dirpfferent mindset than "retail" - more like a Kickstarter campaign, with the benefits being that you can get in on the ground floor of something special (sound, price, and community of interested people waiting for it to arrive). I think it is a lesson to all, but not necessarily a bad one. I am living the sound of the second unit at 75 hours continuous burn in so far.

 

[scanspeakman1]

I think this is part of the learning curve for a company. Cavalli has never done a product in these numbers. That takes a different approach. I hope they have learned from this product. Do it again but in another way or stick to the high priced models in low volumes. And when you read the "adventures" of the Schiit founder, there are some many things that can go wrong with a product like this. Again, this is a first for the company and lets keep this in mind.
 
Maybe expectations grew a little out of proportion over time. Anything less than an amp that gives us an immediate eargasm, thats bulletproof, delivers 99,999% of the sound of the higher priced models, etc will not meet the expectations by some people. Lets just see how Cavalli handles any technical problems with the product. 
 
For me; I now have a really nice amp that perfectly fits my needs for a price thats a little higher then I first thought I would spend. But I am not regretting any pennie of it now because I really enjoy listening to it. Yes probably there are better products for more money but so what. It still is a great product for a great price.
 
Scanspeakman

 

[mscott58]

  I am beginning to think that if the amps absolutely need Burn-in as the instruction manual says, then they should have been burned in by Cavalli audio. It seems there has been a hundred different ways to burn the thing in and nothing is consistent. Like a Martin Guitar, the amps were not finished when received by the user but were in untested kit form for us to burn in haphazardly. Now we seem to have a lot of different Liquid Carbons with imbalance problems and what not. I still think my amp had more bottom end before putting it through "The Burning". I asked Alex about burning in gradually or all at 150 hours at once. I got a two word answer. "It's better". Perhaps he's sick of the entire project. When you get down to it, Cavalli, Schiit and everyone else is simply in Retail. Just like Best Buy. Throw Socks. The amps should have been finished in-house.

Keeping 500 amps burning in, plugged in with music playing and headphones attached, for 150 hours would take forever and cost a ton. People were already about to burn Alex at the stake for any and all delays. Not realistic IMO. And my guess is that the imbalance has nothing to do with the burn-in, but rather the amps themselves, as he was having a bunch of issues with the manufacturer. And to my engineering mind I simply don't see a way that burning in an amp could affect the balance between channels. Cheers 

 

[coastal1]

Keeping 500 amps burning in, plugged in with music playing and headphones attached, for 150 hours would take forever and cost a ton. People were already about to burn Alex at the stake for any and all delays. Not realistic IMO. And my guess is that the imbalance has nothing to do with the burn-in, but rather the amps themselves, as he was having a bunch of issues with the manufacturer. And to my engineering mind I simply don't see a way that burning in an amp could affect the balance between channels. Cheers 

I'm thrilled with my amp. No issues. That said, there's no improvement in my amp after burn in, which is fine, I loved it after 24 hours... The manual recommends in BOLD to "disconnect your headphones" when not listening during burn in. I didn't do this, but if Cavalli followed its own guidelines and burned in on site, it wouldn't have cost hardly anything, much less a ton.

 

[doctorjazz]

And, to use the given example, no one expects Martin to break in their guitars before shipping (I understand it is a long break in).

And, getting back to some of the back and forth on whether the LC is the best thing since Mother's Milk...
All I can say, My LC is really good
My MicroZOTL2 is better.

LC is bedside system (Pono/LC/iem usually)
MicroZOTL2 is next system up (PC/LH Labs 2G USB/REgen/Geek Out Special Edition/MicroZOTL2/HE-1000 with Norne Zoetic cables)
Best is main system, speakers, turntable, ect (but listen to the headphone systems much more). Connecting my ZOTL to the Linn Turntable, then listening to the HEK is amazing (but very inconvenient with the current set up, waiting for a Norne extension to make this easier to do).

And, it is no shame for the LC to be bested by gear that costs twice as much or more...

 

[doctorjazz]

And, I agree with the comment this is more like crowdfunding than regular retail deals.
(and, remember, it could be worse...could be on the wait for LH Labs gear...seems I may get the Vi Tube Dac this year, maybe...)

 

[coastal1]

I think this is part of the learning curve for a company. Cavalli has never done a product in these numbers. That takes a different approach. I hope they have learned from this product. Do it again but in another way or stick to the high priced models in low volumes. And when you read the "adventures" of the Schiit founder, there are some many things that can go wrong with a product like this. Again, this is a first for the company and lets keep this in mind.

Maybe expectations grew a little out of proportion over time. Anything less than an amp that gives us an immediate eargasm, thats bulletproof, delivers 99,999% of the sound of the higher priced models, etc will not meet the expectations by some people. Lets just see how Cavalli handles any technical problems with the product. 

For me; I now have a really nice amp that perfectly fits my needs for a price thats a little higher then I first thought I would spend. But I am not regretting any pennie of it now because I really enjoy listening to it. Yes probably there are better products for more money but so what. It still is a great product for a great price.

Scanspeakman

I'm thrilled with my amp but feel bad for people having issues. Cavalli already had a portable amp in the works before I got my Carbon that will surely exceed 500 units. So I'm sure they will learn from this, but at the same time they were marching ahead with a much more mass produced amp while there were apparently manufacturing issues with the Carbon.

 

[defbear]

As someone who had an amp sent back and repaired, I totally understand your frustration. But I have approached the LC with a dirpfferent mindset than "retail" - more like a Kickstarter campaign, with the benefits being that you can get in on the ground floor of something special (sound, price, and community of interested people waiting for it to arrive). I think it is a lesson to all, but not necessarily a bad one. I am living the sound of the second unit at 75 hours continuous burn in so far.

Kickstarter is not a bad way of thinking about it I agree. So far the waiting and anticipation and reading the Immense Complaining has been more fun than the amp. I would buy the amp again just for the amp. I wouldn't let it go through "The Burning" again for sure. Mine is maybe a little shy on the bass but perhaps not. Perhaps the amp just opened up on the upper mids and detail. I bought some th900's to compensate. My amp is working fine.
I have some advice. Sometimes with a new piece of equipment you might hear a funny sound. And then later you don't. And later, you think you hear it. Maybe not. And you keep looking for it. STOP! DO NOT SEARCH FOR IT!!!!!!! A person winds up hearing nothing but the offending noise! And then the person asks me "What can I do?" The answer "Buy a different Guitar (oops I mean Amp), this ones ruined for you." And there could be nothing really wrong with the amp in question. But the one little thing bugging them will never go away. The Engineer's I deal with are the worst (throw socks now all of you)!
Don't inspect your wonderful new Cavalli to death. Just play it in a normal manner.