[Tadgh]

I'm really trying my best to get my head around this one because I try not to damn anything without hearing both sides of the coin - but why do some head-fiers insist that there's audible differences between USB/DigitalTransfer cables?

From my reasonably established understanding of data transfer, the only times that a digital transfer might drop a packet is when there's either a damaged port, cable, or you've saturated your connection. None of these things should happen in regular usage.

But some swear there's an audible improvement, and I'd like to understand/believe - I honestly would.

 

[Buzzkill93]

+1
Interested in any answers too. Preferably links to any scientific research?

 

[WraithApe]

Yet another cable thread? 

 
Don't you suspect you already know the answer to your question? It's placebo, pure and simple. If you have some understanding of digital data transfer and digital data formats in general, then you know that bits in error (and there won't be many even with the most basic cables that conform to a standard) would result in random drop-outs, not the kind of subtle improvements in sound quality some claim - e.g. greater transparency, an 'opening up' of the mid range.
 
I've seen these debates so many times before, and proponents of boutique digital cables always try to obfuscate by throwing around certain terms - 'jitter' is a classic example. Another argument is that USB wasn't designed to carry audio data - which is another red herring: USB is designed to work with isochronous endpoints, which enables the transmission of both video and audio data - in short, the standard was designed to be content agnostic.
 
There's no end to this debate though - believers will believe and will swear blind there is a difference and insist that people have to hear the difference for themselves, neglecting both the basic science, and the fact that simple A/Bing is inherently unreliable.

 

[Brooko]

You're in the cable (DBT free) section.  So you're only going to get one side of the debate here.
 
If you're looking for the other side - try the same post in the Sound Science section 

 

[Tadgh]

+1
Interested in any answers too. Preferably links to any scientific research?

Bump. Not looking for opinions so much as facts.

Yet another cable thread? :rolleyes:

Don't you suspect you already know the answer to your question? It's placebo, pure and simple. If you have some understanding of digital data transfer and digital data formats in general, then you know that bits in error (and there won't be many even with the most basic cables that conform to a standard) would result in random drop-outs, not the kind of subtle improvements in sound quality some claim - e.g. greater transparency, an 'opening up' of the mid range.

I've seen these debates so many times before, and proponents of boutique digital cables always try to obfuscate by throwing around certain terms - 'jitter' is a classic example. Another argument is that USB wasn't designed to carry audio data - which is another red herring: USB is designed to work with isochronous endpoints, which enables the transmission of both video and audio data - in short, the standard was designed to be content agnostic.

There's no end to this debate though - believers will believe and will swear blind there is a difference and insist that people have to hear the difference for themselves, neglecting both the basic science, and the fact that simple A/Bing is inherently unreliable.

Honestly friend, I came in here with my mind made up hoping for someone to help me see the otherside. I'd like to think I have a fairly established understanding of USB, having worked with the system design for years now. But hey, maybe I could learn?

Also, sorry to be bringing up some overplayed topic again (and possibly in the wrong thread) - I'm new enough on these forums and I didn't think there'd be much room for debate..

You're in the cable (DBT free) section.  So you're only going to get one side of the debate here.

If you're looking for the other side - try the same post in the Sound Science section 

Sounds like much more my kind of section thanks.

Just figured out DBT stands for debate - sorry, my bad xD

 

[Brooko]

Just figured out DBT stands for debate - sorry, my bad xD

 
Not quite - DBT = double blind test (ie the gold standard in testing).  Here (this forum section) it can't be discussed.  In Sound Science it can.

 

[WraithApe]

   
Not quite - DBT = double blind test (ie the gold standard in testing).  Here (this forum section) it can't be discussed.  In Sound Science it can.

 
Might that not have been a sly joke at the expense of the somewhat one-sided nature of discussions that often occur? Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it...

 

[Brooko]

Yep - thought that also (would have been quite appropriate actually) - but just thought I'd clarify in case it was a genuine comment.

 

[Tadgh]

Not quite - DBT = double blind test (ie the gold standard in testing).  Here (this forum section) it can't be discussed.  In Sound Science it can.

Right, well I don't feel too bad for not picking up on that

Might that not have been a sly joke at the expense of the somewhat one-sided nature of discussions that often occur? Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it...

It wasn't on my behalf (I wish it was, that would've been very witty), but perhaps it was a mod taking a sly dig..

Yep - thought that also (would have been quite appropriate actually) - but just thought I'd clarify in case it was a genuine comment.

It was perfectly genuine, and thanks for your explanation - again, if only I had that level of wit about me tonight ;p

 

[WraithApe]

@Tadgh You may find this old(-ish) thread, if not informative, at least entertaining: http://www.head-fi.org/t/703795/gah-audiophile-usb-cable

 

[Planarman]

Yet another cable thread? :rolleyes:

Don't you suspect you already know the answer to your question? It's placebo, pure and simple. If you have some understanding of digital data transfer and digital data formats in general, then you know that bits in error (and there won't be many even with the most basic cables that conform to a standard) would result in random drop-outs, not the kind of subtle improvements in sound quality some claim - e.g. greater transparency, an 'opening up' of the mid range.

I've seen these debates so many times before, and proponents of boutique digital cables always try to obfuscate by throwing around certain terms - 'jitter' is a classic example. Another argument is that USB wasn't designed to carry audio data - which is another red herring: USB is designed to work with isochronous endpoints, which enables the transmission of both video and audio data - in short, the standard was designed to be content agnostic.

There's no end to this debate though - believers will believe and will swear blind there is a difference and insist that people have to hear the difference for themselves, neglecting both the basic science, and the fact that simple A/Bing is inherently unreliable.

Cables certainly can make a difference. I used to own the PSbm4u1 and it came with two cables. A plain audio cable and a cable that had audio controls on it for an iPhone. And I can tell you with absolute certainty, that the iPhone cable made the headphones sound worse. They performed much better with the plain, audio only cable.

 

[WraithApe]

Cables certainly can make a difference. I used to own the PSbm4u1 and it came with two cables. A plain audio cable and a cable that had audio controls on it for an iPhone. And I can tell you with absolute certainty, that the iPhone cable made the headphones sound worse. They performed much better with the plain, audio only cable.

 
If you could explain why one digital cable would improve sound quality over another, I'd be interested to hear your explanation.
 
Auditory memory is excpetionally short (a matter of seconds) and the imagination is very powerful - unless you were doing a controlled test, I would be inclined to chalk it up to cognitive bias. Talking about your own 'absolute certainty' doesn't cut it with me. But hey, if you're convinced of it, then that's fine and dandy! I'm not going to try and change your mind.

 

[Planarman]

If you could explain why one digital cable would improve sound quality over another, I'd be interested to hear your explanation.

Auditory memory is excpetionally short (a matter of seconds) and the imagination is very powerful - unless you were doing a controlled test, I would be inclined to chalk it up to cognitive bias. Talking about your own 'absolute certainty' doesn't cut it with me. But hey, if you're convinced of it, then that's fine and dandy! I'm not going to try and change your mind.

I didn't do measurements because the difference was so easily noticeable that it wasn't necessary. All I can tell you is that I'm not the only one who noticed the difference between the two stock cables. Many people have said the same thing over multiple forums.
And just for perspective, I'm not comparing a stock cable to a $150 aftermarket cable that's made of pure silver. I'm comparing two stock cables that are standard with the purchase of the headphones. Believe what you want, but I have nothing to gain from this. They were and are amazing headphones but the included iPhone cable was pure crap.

 

[Tadgh]

@Tadgh
 You may find this old(-ish) thread, if not informative, at least entertaining: http://www.head-fi.org/t/703795/gah-audiophile-usb-cable

Well, time for me to go add "Science Vigilante" to my CV xD beautiful stuff right there..

Cables certainly can make a difference. I used to own the PSbm4u1 and it came with two cables. A plain audio cable and a cable that had audio controls on it for an iPhone. And I can tell you with absolute certainty, that the iPhone cable made the headphones sound worse. They performed much better with the plain, audio only cable.

Fantastic, I'm glad you're happy with your investment! You should find someone who can test packet to packet input to output from your cable! I'd love to see the results versus cheaper alternatives! (I'm sorry if I seem snarky, I don't mean to be, I do value input and if this isn't a placebo I'd love for this information to be accessible to all nay-sayers, to prove us wrong)

If you could explain why one digital cable would improve sound quality over another, I'd be interested to hear your explanation.

Auditory memory is excpetionally short (a matter of seconds) and the imagination is very powerful - unless you were doing a controlled test, I would be inclined to chalk it up to cognitive bias. Talking about your own 'absolute certainty' doesn't cut it with me. But hey, if you're convinced of it, then that's fine and dandy! I'm not going to try and change your mind.

Well there in lies the importance of scientific method!

 

[Planarman]

If you could explain why one digital cable would improve sound quality over another, I'd be interested to hear your explanation.

Auditory memory is excpetionally short (a matter of seconds) and the imagination is very powerful - unless you were doing a controlled test, I would be inclined to chalk it up to cognitive bias. Talking about your own 'absolute certainty' doesn't cut it with me. But hey, if you're convinced of it, then that's fine and dandy! I'm not going to try and change your mind.

Wraithape, also if you go look at expensive aftermarket cables on EBay or Amazon, ones that are copper wrapped in pure silver, for example, they will tell you in the description that they add a warm slant to the sound. Now I have never owned one of them because I will never pay $200 for a freaking cable, but that's what they say.