Can some1 explain why ppl buy vintage pcdp made in the 80s?
Mar 29, 2006 at 8:37 PM Post #46 of 67

bangraman

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ejoy
I won't agree with this. The sound stage on my newly acquired sony D-33 beats my ipod 5G easily even with apple aac lossless with lineout through an xin amp with hd600. The D-33 clearly offers more dynamic range than the ipod. I'm listing to classical music BTW.

The downside of D-33 is it takes 4AA for only 8hr playback. Had to be used with a mains.




I suppose it boils down to what you're looking for. I certainly can't agree with this, having pitted a D-33 against older iPods. The sound is rather ballsy but actually pretty rough... pair the iPod with a low-end, fatter amp and you've got a match. It would be interesting to know how you feel about it after the 'new toy/bargain fever' dies down.
 
Mar 29, 2006 at 8:49 PM Post #47 of 67

Peyotero

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What, you think he'll like his ipod better after(/if) the "fever" for vintage dies?
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Mar 30, 2006 at 7:53 AM Post #48 of 67

fewtch

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ejoy
I won't agree with this. The sound stage on my newly acquired sony D-33 beats my ipod 5G easily even with apple aac lossless with lineout through an xin amp with hd600. The D-33 clearly offers more dynamic range than the ipod. I'm listing to classical music BTW.


Definitely a great PCDP for classical. Wide soundstage & dynamic range, lush sound without too much detail shoved in your face. Lack of any serious digititis in the highs. My only complaint is some graininess in the upper midrange (listen closely to violins, you should hear it).
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 8:31 AM Post #49 of 67

sxr71

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tungsten
[Begin rant]

Old electronics don’t have any nostalgia meaning to me, they are simply cheap, good looking, solid, and represent a brief period of sanity, long since lost. Sure certain new stuff can sound better, but at those prices points, and with the ugly ugly silver factor, I’m not buying it.

[/End rant]




That's not nostalgia? Sure they were better built and representive of an era when companies were proud of their products, but do they really sound better?

If anything this might really be a multibit DAC vs. Delta-Sigma DAC argument. Both sides seem to have their fans.
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 8:37 AM Post #50 of 67

sxr71

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DeeJayBump
Simple. It's about the sound.

I can hear the difference between the original and an MP3 rip of that same song. For me, the rip is not sonically acceptable. Sure, most "classic" PCDPs have limited battery life compared to the plutonium-powered portable players of today, but that is easily remedied. Simply build an external battery pack and fill it with rechargeable batteries.

You can talk about how lossless compression algorithms are the ****, but my ears can tell the difference between the original and an approximation.

All the folks who believe modern DAPs are superior to a good "classic" PCDP suffer from temporocentrism.




Buddy have you heard of the possibility of storing the full resolution 16/44.1 audio on a DAP? Also a lossless codec does not approximate, it retrieves the exact data bit for bit that was there before lossless compression. If you haven't heard DVD-A (while not my hi-rez format of choice) use lossless compression. You shouldn't really talk if you don't know what you are talking about. Approximation?
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 8:52 AM Post #51 of 67

sxr71

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Wow, wasn't the whole point of lusting after vintage PDCPs to look for players with multibit DACs? Those have a following to this day, and some modern manfacturers of CD players believe in the superiority of some of those multibit implementations and try to create their own iterations today.

However after the switch to "1-bit" or "delta-sigma" around 1990, we've been stuck with those implementations ever since. Pretty much any audiophile source will mention those being a low point for CD sound. It has only been recently around 1999 that we have recovered from that economization step. Yes, that was the only reason they switched to 1-bit those days - to save money.

A good basis for comparison is a good modern CD player or even better a SACD player, perhaps some vinyl even. Spending some time at audioasylum might also help.


P.S. I realize that some of players mentioned in this thread actually use multibit DAC implementaions.
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 4:33 PM Post #53 of 67

Filburt

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Mar 30, 2006 at 5:52 PM Post #54 of 67

sxr71

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyotero
Recovered? where?
And why are you comparing full size decks to a pcdp?




Alright you have a point. Modern PDCPs are horrible in that they are built to be as cheap as possible or are built to conserve energy so much as to butcher the sound. So I can see why people might go for those "built like a tank" old PDCP players with multi-bit DACs. The other reason as someone posted here is that ability to own today what one lusted over years ago.



But the early 1-bit units were not very good in terms of digital performance, while their analog sides were good for portables. By the time manufacturers were able to provide good implementations of 1-bit DACs the cheapening of these players was at full force. Today using the line out or digital out from a PDP to an amplifier/DAC is a good option especially if you have a Red Wine Audio like mod for the line out or use the digital out from a player suitably equipped.


As for recovered, those early 1-bit units had terrible digital performance and only in last 5-6 years have we had strides in the digital side to get results equal to or better than the best multi-bit ladder DACs of the late 80s - early 90s. Some people will even so far as to say those ladder DACs were better than anything we have now. Yeah there's a NOS situation brewing in Digital these days. I don't know how much this matters to you, but the Linn CD-12 which has almost a legendary status among CD players uses/used a ladder DAC. However ultimately they say that today as digital technology stands implementation matters far more than the type of DAC chosen.

Just go onto "Digital Drive" at audioasylum to learn more. They have designers and engineers from major audio companies posting from time to time.
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 9:46 PM Post #55 of 67

Peyotero

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Thanks for the intresting reply, you obviously poses much knowledge on that metter. But that's not the answer i was looking for. See, i'm not a smart guy. All this looks like technical data and history.

What i'm looking for is something more definite. Practical beyond the "internet argument". Something like what bangraman said "Virtually any current mainstream HDD DAP would be a starting point." aka any mainstream HDD DAP is better then my (his) D555 (although i'm not sure if he referred to this particular model only or vintage PCDPs in general).

So what's wrong with what he said? Nothing, it's his experience and this is what he belives in.
But, even if his credability is 99.9%, he's still one person. So is there a reason why more (reliable) ppl didn't reply with something "in your face" like that?
"Most of the members here have top of the line daps and vintage pcdp's are to cheap not to try (atleast the d-33 that i own).
I know sound comparison can be difficult to do sometimes. Especially if bias kicks in ("gadget-ism vs nostalgy
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) between. But this is Head-Fi. It's all about the sound right?

Ok, forget about it. "Simple" question. Does a top of the line dap gonna give me that WOW factor that i got from d-33 (or similar)?

You'll say, "wow factor" is subgective and veries from dude to another, so i'll try to explain.

Allmost all my life i was listening to trance, ambient and chill out (lets sum it up with electronic music. the more deranged the better).
Now that the psy-scene is pretty much dead in Israel (it's all about the fullon now aka nevermind
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) i realised i need to fill the gaps or be left out without music in my life (i really belived at the time that trance gonna last for eternity & everything is just going to develope from there
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)
So you see i didn't fell the need for a good source becouse electronic music is not that demanding. I could just pop some mp3/cd to any of my crappy sources and be happy.
Now i'm getting into other geners. Classic (preferebly somewhat psychedelic
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) rock mainly: Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, some Radiohead and ofcource You can't advance anywhere without some Bob Dylan
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even some jazz for god sakes although as for now i found only Urban Bushman The Art Ensemble of Chicago to be toleratable
tongue.gif


The d-33 totally gave me the sound i was looking for my music where all my other crap failed. It feels like that how music supposed to sound like respectivly (considering it's a pcdp=> pa2v2=> portapro's). I don't feel like something is missing and i don't wish for anything better.
I also have a "modern" Panasonic SLSV550. I have one word for it, POS! #@$#%.
Here's an example, i never liked The Doors and i don't "conect" to Jim Morrison.
But then i poped one of their records into that vintage player and thats where i learned to respect their music. And I'm not overreacting
rolleyes.gif


Dam i hope you're still with me. I never typed so much bull in my entire life
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So umm haha forget everything i wrote! Will a DAP give me that feeling "like nothing is missing" and like i don't need anything better to dig my music?

It's so convenient, take a 60gb dap and through all your cd collection in it then take it anywhere you want. So how big is that sound compromise if any?
I don't want to find out it's only slightly better in SQ then my Sandisk flash dap (i can only accept that kind of sound as long as it stays what it is, a tiny 1gb flash driver).
I only heared the iPod mini but it was in a noisy enviorment with iBuds and the devil knows what bitrate so no comment on that part.

Oh and thanks for the Audioasylum link. Coupl'a days there and i'm a sound engineer
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I also belive i just created the longes reply in the universe!! Should i add it to my resume?
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 10:59 PM Post #56 of 67

Filburt

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My personal experience does not mirror bangraman's. He's pretty emphatic about his claim that modern DAPs meet or exceed the performance of vintage PCDPs, but my experience has been that his case is simply overstated. I've used a variety of DAPs, as well as PCDPs, and while I agree with him that many of the vintages are not that great, and that simply being a vintage PCDP doesn't guarantee it as being particularly good, I don't agree that modern DAPs are as good as the best of the vintage PCDPs. That said, you can probably exceed either with the use of a good deck that may run you as much, if not less than, one of the 'legendary' status PCDPs. So when you start looking at the really sought after models, the premium IMHO becomes too high unless you really need something compact as the price/performance ratio sinks below that of an inexpensive deck. Although, if you're into collecting them, that's a different matter.

My advice to you is to keep using your D-33 and enjoy it. I have some doubt that you'll be able to match the sound you get from it, in terms of qualitative character, with a DAP. One reason is that the DSP controls may not be flexible enough to accomplish this, and another may be just other limitations of the hardware that may limit soundstage, imaging, etc. One thing to consider, though, is that maybe you'll find a sound amongst the DAPs that you like even better, despite not being able to reproduce the sound of the D-33. I can't guarantee that will happen, though.
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 11:33 PM Post #57 of 67

Peyotero

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Cheers Filburt, that makes great sense to me.

The D-33 is definitely a keeper and i guess the topic is closed for me.
I knew i won't get away so easley with this. So the search continues. Something i tried to avoid
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I'll just compare few DAPs and see how it goes on the compromise department
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If any.

Later.
 
Mar 30, 2006 at 11:55 PM Post #58 of 67

bangraman

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It is perhaps overstated simply due to certain individuals overstating the flipside argument. Maybe the biggest difference is that I've owned an equal or slightly greater number of DAPs than old PCDP's that I've owned or had on extended trial. After a while of thinking that vintages may be superior, I eventually developed a more even-handeded methodology of comparing them and cottoned on to the realisation that in the vast majority of cases through the headphone socket, the differences were simply dynamic, i.e. volume related. In many cases where this may be true between a certain DAP and a PCDP, add an amp and the differences are neutralised, or put in favour of the DAP.


In addition to the basic units such as the D-33, I have owned a number of the most sought after units. None have justified anywhere near their hype, although the DCP-150 is indeed a nice source. I have no idea what other people's genuine experiences are.
 
Mar 31, 2006 at 12:57 AM Post #59 of 67

Peyotero

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Dude if i was british i'd say: this is outragious!!! haha

If the Denon DCP-150 is "nice" how would you describe your best dap?
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Becides, methinks that a lineout is a must if you own an amp anyway. Atleast if you hear such a difference like you described.
 

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