Can pk1's be powered by a cowon d2 without an amp

[jmageshazam]

A cowon D2 is in being shipped to my home. I am looking to purchase the pk1, but do not want to buy an amp because I have a limited budget and the d2 has no true line out. Because the D2 has such a strong output (54mw into 16ohms impedance), I thought it might be able to power the pk1's without an amp. I hope I dont have to purchase an amp.

Thank you.

jon

 

[facelvega]

why not just get the PK2? 54mW is good but very little compared to a portable amp, and I doubt that it will make a PK1 sound any better than it would a PK2.

 

[Bozz_Keren]

D2 can drive PK1 quite loud, but you'll get better sound quality with portable amp

 

[tstarn06]

x2 on that. It's not just about powering the PK1s, it's about getting the max SQ. That means having an amp. Otherwise, get the PK2s or PK3s (which also benefit from amping, but not a requirement).

 

[caramelsoul]

Its strange you should ask this question as thats the exact question i was about to ask. I have a Cowon D2 and have just bought the PK1's but have not received them yet. I have a pair of Shure SE530's but they are not suitable for me while at work. Hence the need for some earbuds. I didnt check out the specs properly and just noticed the high impedence on them. So i was also wondering if the D2 can comfortably power the PK1's with out having an adverse effect on battery life and SQ. As suggested above i will not be buying a portable amp. I have already sold my H140/MicroDAC/Tomahawk combo for a more portable rig.

I also dont see the value in amping a source that doesnt have line out.

By the way the D2 is 74mW in to 16Ohms.

If they are not suitable then i will be looking to trade my PK1 for a pair of PK2's.

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by caramelsoul /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its strange you should ask this question as thats the exact question i was about to ask. I have a Cowon D2 and have just bought the PK1's but have not received them yet. I have a pair of Shure SE530's but they are not suitable for me while at work. Hence the need for some earbuds. I didnt check out the specs properly and just noticed the high impedence on them. So i was also wondering if the D2 can comfortably power the PK1's with out having an adverse effect on battery life and SQ. As suggested above i will not be buying a portable amp. I have already sold my H140/MicroDAC/Tomahawk combo for a more portable rig. I also dont see the value in amping a source that doesnt have line out. By the way the D2 is 74mW in to 16Ohms. If they are not suitable then i will be looking to trade my PK1 for a pair of PK2's.

I understand your concern with amping from a headphone out, but I am right in the middle of doing some A/B testing using my Zune80 (no line out, and I don't believe even the bottom linear plug is true line out) with all my phones (see sig), and when I run through the list of phones amped using the Zune, they sound demonstrably better, richer and in general a major step up from no amp.

In fact, when I ran through the collection without an amp, some really suffered by comparison (PK1s in particular). Now, it all depends on the volume you need to reach for max enjoyment, cause they certainly sound excellent even without an amp. But nowhere near as dynamic as with one.

It'll be interesting to see how you rate the PK1s ampless. Maybe you will find them okay, but it's a high price to pay, I'd say, since the PK3s sound pretty darn good, sans amp, for $50. In fact, in a head to head with the PK1s (through the miniboxE+), the PK3s aren't too far behind the PK1s, just a little less smooth on the highs and mids.

Anyway, hope that the PK1s work out, and as you said, you can always sell them and get the less expensive Yuins.

I did learn something today, though. None of my IEMs/buds is better than the SR80s, at least to my sound preferences. There is something to the notion that an inexpensive set of over the ear cans ($99 for the SR80s) outperform most mid-priced in-ear phones. If I could really get the SR80 sound sign in a $100-$150 IEM, I'd be thrilled. Just not happening for me.

 

[caramelsoul]

As far as i see it there is not much to gain from amping from an already amped source that is not true line out. I have tried this on a few players using different phones , Shure E3c, SE530, Grado SR80 and 325 and amps Airhead, RS71 and the Tomahawk. Its hard to gauge though, as you will never be able to tell if the volume is the same and it always sounds better with a little more volume. Anyway i digress.

I wont be needing a huge amount of volume. I will be listening to these only while i am in bed at night. I work on an oil rig but if i was listening to my SE530's at night and the fire alarm (GPA) went off i would probably not hear it. So these are going to be used very little just to fall asleep with, there will be no other noise factors near me. I just wanted a decent pair of buds as all the ones iv heard sound like *****. Hopefully they wont sound too bad powered straight from the D2. The D2 does have quite a good power rating when compared to most players on the market. Hopefully will have arrived by the time i get home from this trip on the 10th weather dependent. So i will post my thoughts.

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by caramelsoul /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as i see it there is not much to gain from amping from an already amped source that is not true line out. I have tried this on a few players using different phones , Shure E3c, SE530, Grado SR80 and 325 and amps Airhead, RS71 and the Tomahawk. Its hard to gauge though, as you will never be able to tell if the volume is the same and it always sounds better with a little more volume. Anyway i digress. I wont be needing a huge amount of volume. I will be listening to these only while i am in bed at night. I work on an oil rig but if i was listening to my SE530's at night and the fire alarm (GPA) went off i would probably not hear it. So these are going to be used very little just to fall asleep with, there will be no other noise factors near me. I just wanted a decent pair of buds as all the ones iv heard sound like *****. Hopefully they wont sound too bad powered straight from the D2. The D2 does have quite a good power rating when compared to most players on the market. Hopefully will have arrived by the time i get home from this trip on the 10th weather dependent. So i will post my thoughts.

Understand. Maybe my perception is just that when it comes to amping via the headphone out. I do have a ZVM, which does have true line out. Anyway, I digress too. Sounds like the PK1s are perfect for your uses. Your post made me plug them into both the Zune and the new Sony A816 that came yesterday (w/o an amp), and for buds, they are amazing. I immediately jumped to the PK3s and the added volume you can get is a benefit, without losing all that much SQ. Anyway, I will be interested to see what you think, since I don't own a Cowon.

 

[caramelsoul]

Coming from using an iRiver H140(80GB) with Tomahawk, i really think the D2's SQ is excellent. Not as good as the above combo but i have no complaints. 4GB + 16GB HCSD card and loads of codec support this is the ideal all in one small player for me. Ill let youi know how i get on with the PK1's. Although i dont really have any other buds to compare apart from the stock Cowon ones.

 

[facelvega]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand your concern with amping from a headphone out, but I am right in the middle of doing some A/B testing using my Zune80 (no line out, and I don't believe even the bottom linear plug is true line out) with all my phones (see sig), and when I run through the list of phones amped using the Zune, they sound demonstrably better, richer and in general a major step up from no amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caramelsoul /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as i see it there is not much to gain from amping from an already amped source that is not true line out. I have tried this on a few players using different phones , Shure E3c, SE530, Grado SR80 and 325 and amps Airhead, RS71 and the Tomahawk. Its hard to gauge though, as you will never be able to tell if the volume is the same and it always sounds better with a little more volume. Anyway i digress.

My experience in this matter up until very recently completely confirmed what tstarn06 is saying and made me very dubious about what caramelsoul is saying here. There is nothing inherently wrong with double amping (what is called preamping everywhere else in hifi, and which every good dac does to its line out anyway), as long as the two components have a good synergy. Volume matching is easy to do, and can be confirmed with a cheap meter, and once this is taken into account, there is still a big difference between an underamped headphone and a sufficiently amped one: tightness and fullness of the bass, resolution of complicated sounds ranging into treble, like drum and cymbal strikes, and a general richness and fullness to the sound.

Quote:

Hopefully they wont sound too bad powered straight from the D2. The D2 does have quite a good power rating when compared to most players on the market.

However, yesterday I tested one of these new high-power cowon players, in my case an F2, against an older cowon with an external amp (look here), and found that the higher output, though still far below that of a portable amp, did make a serious difference with some difficult-to-drive portable headphones, bringing the player by itself nearly up to the level of an amped player. I still strongly believe that the ipods, zunes, kenwoods, and sony players with their miserly output currents (often as little as 6mW per channel into 16 ohms) cannot sufficiently drive most portable headphones, but once you get up to 30mW per channel or so, this difference begins to be much less noticeable.

 

[Shahrose]

please...be realistic guys. an amp will make very minute sq changes at best. i can power the dt990s off the cowon d2 with decent quality and volume, and you guys are saying it'll be hard to drive the pk1's?

you don't need an amp. the extra cost+weight+size is not worth the slight sq difference on the move.

 

[facelvega]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif please...be realistic guys. an amp will make very minute sq changes at best. i can power the dt990s off the cowon d2 with decent quality and volume, and you guys are saying it'll be hard to drive the pk1's? you don't need an amp. the extra cost+weight+size is not worth the slight sq difference on the move.

Sure, with your D2, but does your Go-Vibe improve your nano?

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif please...be realistic guys. an amp will make very minute sq changes at best. i can power the dt990s off the cowon d2 with decent quality and volume, and you guys are saying it'll be hard to drive the pk1's? you don't need an amp. the extra cost+weight+size is not worth the slight sq difference on the move.

When it comes to using an amp or not, I can only speak for the Zune and Sony DAPs (and the Creatives I own/owned), not the Cowon. I'd rather not ever use an amp, in a perfect world, but just sitting here, listing to my various phones amped and unamped, with my two DAPs, the Minibox-E+ makes a major difference SQ-wise (not minute in my case), not just louder volume. Some of the phones (the Atrios, PK3s, SR80s) don't need an amp to sound good, but when I plug in the amp, they sound great. Just being honest. I understand caramelsoul's situation, and he probably won't need an amp. But the PK1s really sparkle when hooked up to an amp, much more so than when they aren't.

For me, if I am sitting on a train or plane, an amp is worth a little extra bulk. Even walking around, the Penguin makes it all sound better with very little hassle. Again, the sound changes aren't minute, they deliver real impact to my ears. Good that the Cowon doesn't need an amp, but I don't own a Cowon. At least not yet....

 

[montell]

I tried the pk3 with my daps first and I was blown away. I was so impressed that I immediately ordered the pk1 too. Well I just received them and I'm quite disappointed. They sound exactly the same as the pk3 unamped. I'm using ipod nano, iaudio x5 and I even tried my old cd and mididisc player. I know they are suppose to be used with amps but I was expecting a boost in sq even if its minimal.

I'm getting an amp eventually. But I really dont want to use an amp in public. I'll be a sitting duck around here if I flash my ipod in public with a platinum made amp and golden plated cables engraved with diamonds. It will be for home use only. They aint stupid around here.

Or my pk1s could be fake.. I'll never know if I'm not getting an amp. Or is there someway to check? Btw I didnt have to increase my volume to power my pk1s. I was kind of suprised by that because I heard they were pretty stubborn. They volume isnt the problem but the music coming from the pk1 sounds exactly the same when compared to the pk3.

 

[tstarn06]

That's exactly why so many people on the PK1 appreciation thread insist you need an amp to actually use them to their max benefit. I have both, and they don't sound the same to me, but I never use the PK1s without an amp. Today, I compared the two, with an amp, and the PK1 sound is more refined, more detailed than the PK3s. I don't even bother plugging the PK1 in without an amp, because I believe they just aren't that good otherwise. But that's been said over and over, on the PK1/PK2 thread, and by Head-Fi experts like Kramer5150, who did an extensive review of the PK1s awhile ago (search for it, if you are interested).

Funny thing, but if I go out and am not going to use an amp, I just automatically grab the PK3s, not the PK1s.

Anyway, why do you think they are bogus? The only two places I know to get them are Headroom and Head-Direct. Did you get them someplace else?

If they are the real thing, you can either get your money back or sell them, and use the PK3s. Save yourself $139, unless you are going to get an amp.