[dura]

Haloxt, thank you very much, you manage to explain very clearly what to expect when going balanced.
I also appreciate your explanation about the Audio-GD neutral sound, ánd the MP3.
Lately, I'm starting to like this kind music and listen less to acoustic vocal music (so I'll visit magnatune again).
Which is one my dilemma's; for vocal music I love a warm and forward mid range, for electronic music the presence of frequency extremes and details are more important.
Now you have me lean towards the REF5 again 

Coulkd it be a problem might that my amp and my speakers (that form a very good couple, so no talk of changing them, they'll stay whatever) can both be described as neutral?

 

[haloxt]

Seems like what you need is a musical balanced dac as small as the ref 5 too bad it's unlikely to come anytime soon as the current musical dac's were released just a few months ago.
 
I wish I could tell you how their higher end neutral and musical dacs compare, but my only experience is their entry level sparrow and compass with different modules. From that limited experience, I think the deciding factor between neutral and musical would be whether you prefer the completely realistic, cold, metallic high frequency bloom, or you like different instruments to bloom a bit softly at the peak with a bit more focus on mids and upper mids as if the instruments contribute more to the gist/emotion of the song than would happen in actuality, but still understandable/not too colored.

 

[dura]

 
Quote:

Seems like what you need is a musical balanced dac as small as the ref 5 too bad it's unlikely to come anytime soon as the current musical dac's were released just a few months ago.
 
I wish I could tell you how their higher end neutral and musical dacs compare, but my only experience is their entry level sparrow and compass with different modules. From that limited experience, I think the deciding factor between neutral and musical would be whether you prefer the completely realistic, cold, metallic high frequency bloom, or you like different instruments to bloom a bit softly at the peak with a bit more focus on mids and upper mids as if the instruments contribute more to the gist/emotion of the song than would happen in actuality, but still understandable/not too colored.

If you put it that way, I choose the latter, I listen for fun. Dealing with reality described like that is something I want to get paid for

. But is it really like that?
Exactly what I'm looking for, a 'musical' REF5, doesn't have to be Audio-GD.

 

[Currawong]

I'd still get a neutral DAC.  If you want to tweak things to have a bit more forward mid-range, see if you can't find a pair of Nordost Heimdall for a reasonable price on Audiogon, as they give a forward mid-range to the sound. Even second-hand they are a bit expensive though.

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

You are absolutely right, I think my Havana wasn't paired optimally by using the Squeezebox Classic as a transport, appearantly it has very jittery and poluted digital signal.
I should have mentioned that too to avoid that people wrongly condemn the Havana, of which I will keep a positive impression. 
After having experienced the joys of HD-based software I've stored all my CDs and DVDs and disctransports are a nono now in my house, sóóo 20th century.

One more reason to look for a DSP-DAC van Audio-GD, it seems the DSP-filter is very good.
Interesting point about Asian DAC's but probably too general to be useful, f.i. the Korean Stello DACs are often described as being very forward.

I remember reading that the Stello dacs are laid back. Must be system synergy in play there. All that aside, with the Primare amp, I would recommend a neutral sounding dac as well. Otherwise, you might have the same problem with the Havana where it was too much of a good thing. Also, the main difference of going unbalanced to balanced will be a lower noise floor which should ultimately lead to improvements in everything. Out of curiosity, did you ever try a Bendix tube with the Havana? I heard the Bendix tubes were a good match in the Havana for people with too much warmth in their systems.

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

Haloxt, thank you very much, you manage to explain very clearly what to expect when going balanced.
I also appreciate your explanation about the Audio-GD neutral sound, ánd the MP3.
Lately, I'm starting to like this kind music and listen less to acoustic vocal music (so I'll visit magnatune again).
Which is one my dilemma's; for vocal music I love a warm and forward mid range, for electronic music the presence of frequency extremes and details are more important.
Now you have me lean towards the REF5 again 

Coulkd it be a problem might that my amp and my speakers (that form a very good couple, so no talk of changing them, they'll stay whatever) can both be described as neutral?

I would not describe Primare or Dynaudio as neutral. I would describe them both as warm.
 

 

[haloxt]

I agree with Currawong, but the reason I say you should consider musical is because it is likely more plug and play instant win than audio-gd's neutral gear which require either luck or cable swapping to get a sound signature that you like very much.

 

[tim3320070]

Quote:

 whether you prefer the completely realistic, cold, metallic high frequency bloom, or you like different instruments to bloom a bit softly

Not the case AT ALL from my experience with my Ref-1 (no offense Haloxt please)- sound is more natural than I have ever experienced- no emphasis anywhere in the frequency. Not that I don't like a little mid warmth with amps or headphones, the Ref-1 (and Ref-7 per Kingwa's statements) is anything but metallic or cold... truly. Smooth, natural, extended, real-- all these apply.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Quote:

Not the case AT ALL from my experience with my Ref-1 (no offense Haloxt please)- sound is more natural than I have ever experienced- no emphasis anywhere in the frequency. Not that I don't like a little mid warmth with amps or headphones, the Ref-1 (and Ref-7 per Kingwa's statements) is anything but metallic or cold... truly. Smooth, natural, extended, real-- all these apply.

X2
 
Peete.

 

[haloxt]

By metallic I mean the sort of airy tang you get from some instruments in real life, like steel string guitars.

 

[dura]

 
Quote:

Out of curiosity, did you ever try a Bendix tube with the Havana? I heard the Bendix tubes were a good match in the Havana for people with too much warmth in their systems.

No, I didn't. But I did have several tubes, and though the differences were clear, the fundamental sound signature of the Havana remained the same
I guess that NOS-architecture is too much of a good thing for me, but the tonal purity of R2R DACs is what I want to keep.

 
Quote:

I would not describe Primare or Dynaudio as neutral. I would describe them both as warm.
 

There is something to say for that, neither component has incisive treble, still both are clear and do not have rolled-off treble, soft dynamics or midbass bloom....well, it is just words which are inadequate to describe a sound signature.
The Kimber 8TC, now there is some bloom in that.
 
Strange, that, although I'm perfectly satisfied with the other components (after years of changing) it is so hard to find a good source.
I use to own a Rega Apollo and, despite it's clear tonal flaws, I absolutely loved that CDP. Hated  everything else digital I ever tried except the Havana.
 
The other posts slowly dissolve my preference for a warm source, I'm leaning towards the Audio-GD REF5 now.
(Though I found that new DAC that looks interesting, the Wyred4Sound DAC-1.)
 

 

[Currawong]

One thing I noticed going from low-fi to hi-fi in my travels as a member here was that, with low-fi, I found myself trying to balance the tone of different components to get a good musical sound.  When the Ref 1 arrived, I realised that with true high-end gear, there is none of that, there is just the music.  This is what I wanted.  You don't need warm this, forward that, or whatever, the music is just there.  I posted that I had to double-check that the Ref 1 was switched on, as I couldn't hear it.  I could hear the music, but not the DAC.  It was if I'd installed the "2001 A Space Odyssey" monolith as a DAC in my system -- it was very physically present, but I couldn't detect it.  I borrowed a TOTL Stax rig from a friend and I could clearly determine the size and layout of studios and venues that the music was recorded in from the details of the echos off the walls.  Asking questions of PRAT and all that was like asking if 'stats are detailed -- this was far beyond all that kind of discussion.
 
Anyway, I reckon that you're so used to a DAC that, by design, distorts the music to get around the "digital" sound that you seek tonal adjustments to enjoy listening (rather like kids buy headphones with a lot of bass) when what you need is a damn good DAC that does a proper job of reproducing music.  I'm very willing to bet if you bought a Reference 7 that you'd never buy another DAC*.  I almost added "or the Reference 5" but realised that you might end up selling the Reference 5 to buy a Reference 7 later on.
 
*Not to say, by the way, that it's the only "end game" DAC out there, but most the rest I'm willing to bet on are either no-longer made or are a hell of a lot more expensive.

 

[haloxt]

I agree very much with Currawong, but people's tastes are different and I do think it may take time to learn to appreciate a pure and uncolored sound, and you might not even hear it if the gear you use with an audio-gd neutral dac is too colored. If you get the ref 5, I hope you're willing to swap cables around to get the sound you like, as audio-gd neutral gear is very revealing of cables.
 
Another thing to consider, ref 5 has less psu circuitry than ref 9 and dac3se, about half the filter capacitors, which makes me think it would benefit more from additional power filtering than the larger dac's. What ref 5 has that ref 9 and dac3se don't is of course its balanced circuitry. When I really go overboard with power filtering I can get my smaller psu units to sound about as clean in the background as my big dac9mk3 with no power filtering, so keep this upgrade route in mind if you decide to get the ref 5 or dac19 instead of a bigger unit.

 

[dura]

Thanks Currawong and Haloxt, I appreciate you taking the time to share the deeper insights and experiences.
Wise words, but remember I have a speakerbased system; for the same budget you can make a near-perfect state-of-the-art headphone-system, but only a medium speakersystem, far from high end, with unwanted interactions with the room and limitations in bass and dynamics.
I can live with those things, not demanding perfection but enjoyability (if that is a word) form my sytem. The Apollo gave that as a source, and that is what I'm looking for in a DAC. Sometimes I fear that a too revealing source might give more problems then it solves.
 
One question about the powersupply; while I'm completely convinved about the necessitiy of clean power (one could see an amp as a signal modulating the power giving an amped signal, so the power should be clean), 2x50 watts transformators for digital circuits and 2 channels of prepreamplification seem be ample, or in fact heav overkill.
Channel seperation is important,but frankly I think one transformer and good cleaning of the DC signal should be enough to my laymans eye. Clealry Kingwa disagree's and his results back him up, but why?

 

[noinimod]

Seems like a strange question to ask why kingwa would put in extra transformers. I mean if it gives better sonics, then why not?
 
FWIW, i'm using the lil dynaudio BM5As with a rythmik f12 sub and they sound amazing with the AG dac9mk3 + c39 pre.

 
If you're looking for really deep bass, especially for the type of electronic music you listen to, you'll probably get that more from a proper sub than the dac, since the 122s are rated to 41hz, IMO not what i would consider low enough for electronic music, though i could be wrong.
 
That said, the dac definitely plays a *huge* part in getting deep, clean and textured bass.