Cable quality versus internal wiring quality

[audionooby]

I know cables are a controversial topic and there are people who believe they do nothing (aside from aesthetics, build quality, so on) and people who believe they do make a difference in the sound quality or coloring of sound. One thing I have been trying to figure out is why cabling would make a difference when the wiring inside everything else (headphones/IEMs, DACs, amps, sources, etc.) is likely just plain old copper or some other simple metal. If only that section of cabling connecting your headphone/IEM to the next device is high quality, wouldn’t it be “watered down” in quality by everything else that carries signals (at least analog signals) that isn’t of the same quality? Or do people look to get all of those to match their cable in quality as well?

 

[BS5711]

Similarly folks say that using an adapter at the termination by default adversely affects sound quality yet nearly every headphone or IEM has three very similar connections.

 

[XTF1]

There are some technical characteristics that can make a difference—impedance, shielding, and… ??? (maybe that’s it).
But beyond this, as soon as you ask “why” a cable would make a difference, I don’t think you can conclude anything else than it doesn’t…

EDIT: And I fully understand paying for the built quality of a cable, it’s aesthetics, etc.

 

[chesebert]

I know cables are a controversial topic and there are people who believe they do nothing (aside from aesthetics, build quality, so on) and people who believe they do make a difference in the sound quality or coloring of sound. One thing I have been trying to figure out is why cabling would make a difference when the wiring inside everything else (headphones/IEMs, DACs, amps, sources, etc.) is likely just plain old copper or some other simple metal. If only that section of cabling connecting your headphone/IEM to the next device is high quality, wouldn’t it be “watered down” in quality by everything else that carries signals (at least analog signals) that isn’t of the same quality? Or do people look to get all of those to match their cable in quality as well?

Circuit design >>> implementation and build >> synergy with associated equipment >> power quality (including ground quality) >> external wires > internal wires.

So not that important in the grand scheme of things.

 

[audionooby]

Circuit design >>> implementation and build >> synergy with associated equipment >> power quality (including ground quality) >> external wires > internal wires.

That’s a great comparison of the priorities. I guess what I am questioning is whether external wires can matter differently from internal wires. Like why are those two not just lumped together at the same “priority level”. If your internal wires are plain old copper wire, that’s sort of the limiting piece that is holding you back, right (if they matter at all I mean)? There would be no point to getting external wires that are higher quality than the internal wires. Or am I not understanding something here?

 

[chesebert]

That’s a great comparison of the priorities. I guess what I am questioning is whether external wires can matter differently from internal wires. Like why are those two not just lumped together at the same “priority level”. If your internal wires are plain old copper wire, that’s sort of the limiting piece that is holding you back, right (if they matter at all I mean)? There would be no point to getting external wires that are higher quality than the internal wires. Or am I not understanding something here?

Too short to make a difference unless we are talking about speakers and power amps that are required to handle significant power.

 

[aristos_achaion]

The thing about external cables is that they need to make a longer run under unknown conditions...your internal wires are never going to have to, say, cross over your computer's power cable or something without picking up any noise. That being said, you're probably not going to hear a difference just based on the material of the conductor (copper, fancy copper, silver, &c), but stuff like the shielding could very well make a difference.

 

[dougms3]

I know cables are a controversial topic and there are people who believe they do nothing (aside from aesthetics, build quality, so on) and people who believe they do make a difference in the sound quality or coloring of sound. One thing I have been trying to figure out is why cabling would make a difference when the wiring inside everything else (headphones/IEMs, DACs, amps, sources, etc.) is likely just plain old copper or some other simple metal. If only that section of cabling connecting your headphone/IEM to the next device is high quality, wouldn’t it be “watered down” in quality by everything else that carries signals (at least analog signals) that isn’t of the same quality? Or do people look to get all of those to match their cable in quality as well?

The wiring inside is just plain old copper but there are different levels of plain old copper. There are different levels of purity, theres different types of drawing processes (ie OCC - Ohno continuous cast), theres different configurations (ie litz, solid core, etc.), then theres the insulation, shielding, damping materials, dielectric, etc.

The crystallization has an effect on the way the signal travels through the wire which affects the sound.

Its beyond my ability to explain why, but don't be misled by those that haven't tested anything for themselves or those that choose to believe that its snake oil because their minds cannot comprehend the complexities behind it. You'll often hear something like, "I'm an (place unrelated job title here), I conducted research at top universities that prove cables don't make a difference". The science behind the cables involves metallurgy, physics, quantum physics, electrical and chemical engineering so no an electrician, plumber, IT guy or guy that runs website that reviews audio equipment without listening to anything, would not be an expert in this.

 

[Happy Camper]

Without looking for a fight, I agree. There are a lot of things that go into sound and I learned not to discount anything. I have always wanted a nice Audio Note kit and was "wow"ed by the upgrades. Transformers, connectors, fuses, tubes, jumpers, pc traces, discrete component wires, etc.

 

[XTF1]

Its beyond my ability to explain why, but don't be misled by those that haven't tested anything for themselves or those that choose to believe that its snake oil because their minds cannot comprehend the complexities behind it.

So all of “those” are misleading but it’s beyond your ability to explain why… Why should I believe you’re correct and “those” are wrong?

 

[dougms3]

So all of “those” are misleading but it’s beyond your ability to explain why… Why should I believe you’re correct and “those” are wrong?

Don't believe anything. No one is trying to convince you of anything.

Perfect example of what I was describing btw, thanks for volunteering.

 

[2leftears]

I know cables are a controversial topic and there are people who believe they do nothing (aside from aesthetics, build quality, so on) and people who believe they do make a difference in the sound quality or coloring of sound. One thing I have been trying to figure out is why cabling would make a difference when the wiring inside everything else (headphones/IEMs, DACs, amps, sources, etc.) is likely just plain old copper or some other simple metal. If only that section of cabling connecting your headphone/IEM to the next device is high quality, wouldn’t it be “watered down” in quality by everything else that carries signals (at least analog signals) that isn’t of the same quality? Or do people look to get all of those to match their cable in quality as well?

IMO, the obvious answer to your question is that the external cabling doesn't make a difference to the sound (once you rule out faulty or out-of-spec cables), which solves your conundrum.

Personally, after many decades of using all sorts of different cables from cheap to $$$$, I have found cable "sound" to be an entirely psychological phenomenon. Hence my "best sounding" cables are the ones I made myself. It is an entirely subjective & biased perception, but just knowing I made them myself simply improves my listening experience.

As a side note, I have found very expensive RCA interconnects to be somewhat counterproductive; no improvement in sound but the stiff heavy cables and heavy RCA plugs put far more stress on the RCA sockets than they are designed to deal with. Some "audiophile-grade" RCA plugs are so heavily machined and tight-fitting that they damage the RCA sockets. Half-decent flexible 75 Ohm coax and simple RCA plugs with thin flexing flower-petal-style shield contacts are perfectly adequate IMO.

 

[audionooby]

IMO, the obvious answer to your question is that the external cabling doesn't make a difference to the sound (once you rule out faulty or out-of-spec cables), which solves your conundrum.

Personally, after many decades of using all sorts of different cables from cheap to $$$$, I have found cable "sound" to be an entirely psychological phenomenon. Hence my "best sounding" cables are the ones I made myself. It is an entirely subjective & biased perception, but just knowing I made them myself simply improves my listening experience.

As a side note, I have found very expensive RCA interconnects to be somewhat counterproductive; no improvement in sound but the stiff heavy cables and heavy RCA plugs put far more stress on the RCA sockets than they are designed to deal with. Some "audiophile-grade" RCA plugs are so heavily machined and tight-fitting that they damage the RCA sockets. Half-decent flexible 75 Ohm coax and simple RCA plugs with thin flexing flower-petal-style shield contacts are perfectly adequate IMO.

Thanks. I’ve been mostly thinking about aesthetics, basic build quality, shielding, and microphonics when it comes to considering cables. My conclusion has also been that materials don’t matter as much beyond some bare minimum level. When I looked around it seems like even higher end devices like amps with point to point wiring actually use cheap materials for that wiring. That said, I also think it’s worth having an experience you enjoy and from that perspective I appreciate the “art” of building nice cables and using them.

 

[2leftears]

Thanks. I’ve been mostly thinking about aesthetics, basic build quality, shielding, and microphonics when it comes to considering cables. My conclusion has also been that materials don’t matter as much beyond some bare minimum level. When I looked around it seems like even higher end devices like amps with point to point wiring actually use cheap materials for that wiring. That said, I also think it’s worth having an experience you enjoy and from that perspective I appreciate the “art” of building nice cables and using them.

I was going to mention point-to-point construction in my original reply, but decided not to. But now that you have mentioned it yourself I might as well add my two cents:

Anyone who is convinced they can hear sound differences between different cables ought to be consistent at least and build their own audio devices, point-to-point construction, using their preferred internal cabling, and also using a eutectic solder if they are worried about things like grain structure. Being on the one hand happy to buy audio equipment with automated mass-produced circuit board technology and standard equipment wire internal cabling, but then on the other hand worry about copper crystalline properties of cables connecting to it; IMO that just doesn't make much sense for the reasons you alluded to in your original post.

For those who don't know what these terms mean:

Point-to-point construction (Wikipedia)
What is eutectic solder? (pcbdirectory.com)
Advantages of Eutectic Alloys (Belmontmetals.com)

 

[BS5711]

It is a bit of an impractical extension of the logic of this discussion but it (sort of) surprises me that somebody hasn't put forward the notion that they can hear connections, adapters, cables, solder types, point to point wiring etc to the extent that they mess with hard wiring the headphone cable directly to the (point to point wired) amplifier internal outputs and to the drivers, wouldn't that be the best case scenario ?

Sounds ridiculous to suggest that but frankly no less so than other ideas put forward by folks - saw one recently where the guy said he could clearly tell the difference with the direction of a USB cable, why would one even think to try that out ? actually even said his young grandchild could easily hear it .... yes after you told her to listen for something .... the power of psychology seems to be genuinely lost on so many people it is ridiculous.