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Cable Burn In with regard to Audio Directionality.

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by oldmate, Jun 12, 2015.
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  1. Exacoustatowner
    Is there a "bangs head on desk" emojii? I can't imagine the creators of such really believe it works….BE Prepared Steve, your understanding of physics is about to be blown away. (NOTE: KIDDING)
    Perhaps the following could be applied to Audio Cables? I particularly like this " 
    Below the frequency domain, on the other side of the quantum veil, lies a strange world of automata, the basic building blocks of all reality" 
    Edited: TOO far off topic.
  2. arnyk
    Magnetic hysteresis is a magnetic property, and as has already been documented, doesn't necessarily make the wire nonlinear as a conductor in audio applications. 
    Obviously, you've never tried to measure the nonlinear distortion in steel wire used as cables for regular audio. Try it and see!
  3. Steve Eddy

    Yes. Magnetic hysteresis is a magnetic property. And a steel conductor is ferromagnetic. Further, it is hysteritic. And as you should well know, if there is current flowing in that conductor, it will be producing a magnetic field. And the behavior of that magnetic field will be affected by the permeability characteristics of the medium it is interacting with, which in this case includes the wire itself.

    Therefore, due to this hysteresis, there must be some amount of nonlinearity at some level. Do I need to familiarize you with Maxwell's equations? You keep saying you're an EE so I really shouldn't have to and if you have any familiarity with them, then it should be obvious to you what I have been saying.

    Obviously you haven't been paying attention to what I have written.

    Been there, done that, got the stinking t-shirt. As I have already said, this has been done, and in the context of a relatively short length of wire, the distortion didn't rise above the level of the AP's residual distortion.

    But if you have any decent understanding of physics as it relates to this, you should know that some level of nonlinearity must be introduced when using a ferromagnetic conductor.

  4. arnyk
    Please settle down, camper!  
    Obviously, you aren't reading my posts, so why should I reread yours?
    At the quantum level, everything is nonlinear. If that is a determining factor in your quest for sound quality, well all the luck in the world to ya!   The world is full of Golden Ears who have no idea about quantification, audibility, or any that other crazy real world stuff and are with you 100%.
    I think you've answered my question - no you haven't ever tried to measure the nonlinearity in a piece of steel wire in a typical audio application. Otherwise, you'd have said so by now instead the obvious deflection that happened. 
  5. Steve Eddy

    I'm not talking quantum level. I'm talking macroscopic. Maxwell. This is old school classical physics.

    I'm seriously beginning to doubt that you have the EE you claim to possess. Or if you do, it was a huge waste of time and money. Christ, I didn't even go to high school.

    Put down the crack pipe.

    I didn't say a word about it being a determining factor in my quest for sound quality or audibility. You're hallucinating, dude. If you'd like, I can recommend some good recovery programs in your area.

    Obvious deflection? What's obvious is your tenuous connection with reality.

    As I said, measurements were made on lengths of RG-174, which uses a copper-clad steel center conductor.

    I didn't do the physical measurements myself. The actual measurements were done by Bruno Putzeys, who was with Philips at the time. The measurements were done at my request using cables that I supplied to him.

    The impetus of having these measurements made was in response to John Curl (yes, that John Curl) claiming that he had measured "micro diodes" in cables, a "theory" that has largely been popularized by Audioquest, vis a vis "strand jumping."

    John was using some antiquated measurement gear and it was obvious to me that the "distortion" that he was measuring was due to the shoddy measurement gear and his own incompetence. Bruno had previously done similar cable measurements which showed no signs of of distortion beyond the residual distortion of his AP rig. When this was pointed out to John, he defended his measurements by saying that Bruno wasn't measuring the same cables he was. So I arranged to send both John and Bruno identical cables, which included the RG-174-based cables made by RE Designs, which was owned by the late Dan Banquer.

    Bruno's measurements again showed no sign of distortion beyond the AP's residual distortion, and Bruno's measurements were able to reach a good 20 dB below John's capabilities. However John was getting the same levels of distortion he'd been claiming all along, showing once and for all that it wasn't the cables that were producing the distortion in his measurements.

    The measurements I commissioned Bruno to make can be seen here.


    And now I would like an apology from you for the words you have put into my mouth and your nonsense about "deflection." Oh, and I don't ever want to hear you talk about your EE degree here again.

    cjl likes this.
  6. Steve Eddy
    For anyone else reading all this who has as loose a grasp on reality as Arny does, this is what I actually wrote:

    "Well, ferromagnetic materials do suffer from magnetic hysteresis and therefore possess some inherent amount of nonlinearity. Just that it's not at a level that anyone should worry about. At least not in cable form. Transformer lams are another matter."

    cjl likes this.
  7. kevin gilmore
    history lesson
    back in the picture tube color television (ntsc) days
    there was a specific inductor in every single tv.
    this inductor was about 50 turns around a ferrite core
    with a magnet on one end.
    This was specifically to change its inductance on the
    positive sweep vs the negative retrace.
    magnets used with cables for audio purposes can
    actually do damage to the signal.
  8. Steve Eddy

    A static magnetic field won't have any effect on an audio signal. You can only do that by way of the cable's magnetic field interacting with some ferromagnetic material in close proximity to the cable. I don't think there's much you could do short of maybe wrapping the entire cable around an iron core to get any appreciable amount of distortion. And even then it would only be at the lowest frequencies.

    So while people putting magnets on cables may be horribly misguided, for all intents and purposes it's harmless.

  9. Exacoustatowner
    You need a good laugh Steve- check this out…:) http://www.theportacle.com/products/
  10. Steve Eddy

    Thanks. But that stuff doesn't make me laugh anymore. Makes me want to grab a high powered rifle. :p

  11. Exacoustatowner
    Years ago I went to a "lecture" by a "neuroscientist" with a woman I was getting to know. Turned out to be the originator of this nonsense. I held my tongue until it was question and answer time. As soon as it was clear I had a grasp of science he suddenly had to catch a plane. His angle then was to charge people to place a photo of them on a turntable near computers running his "universal algorithm." This was "healing." My disbelief pretty much ended the friendship due to my "negative energy." Now he sells a program so you can run the algorithm
  12. Steve Eddy

    It's just amazing what you can get people to swallow.

  13. Exacoustatowner
    Evidently scammers have no conscience.
    Now I'm off to chant over my amplifier-certain sustained vocal notes ( the first 8 notes) of Beethoven's 5th resonate with the CIrclatron balanced configuration to "Lift the Quantum Veil." Il be selling versions of my vocal performance appropriate also for Opamps.
    Versions for iPhone and Droid are in beta testing. I find the opening bar of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" works best for portable audio.
    Rave reviews keep coming in!
  14. arnyk
    What you've done Steve is fail to answer a simple question when it was posed, and then tried to make it my fault that you didn't answer the question in a timely fashion and instead deflected the question.
    I didn't get taught about this kind of weirdness in my EE classes, I learned it long before that on the playground in second grade.
  15. arnyk
    If you really understood this topic Steve, you'd know that in order to get appreciable distortion you also need to have that varying magnetic field sufficiently strong.
    Obtaining that field strength with a reasonable piece of wire and the kinds of signal levels usually involved with audio interconnects is exceedingly unlikely.
    OTOH, inside speaker drivers, and even in  the wiring that supplies high levels of power to large subwoofers, it can happen. Ever see the wires hooked to a speaker reproducing very low frequencies "dance"?  It happens!
    There is an interesting effect where placing a current-carrying wire inside a static magnetic field will cause a measurable increase in its resistivity by forcing the current towards one edge of the conductor.
    You can also measure the voltage drop in a conductor that is in a static magnetic field due to this, along a line across the conductor that is perpendicular to the direction of the flow of current. But again, this takes a high current density and a very strong magnetic field.
    It is highly unlikely to have any effect on normal audio cables.
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