Buzzing During GPU Usage
Apr 23, 2021 at 11:28 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 35

djdante

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Hey all, so I recently purchased a Toppic D30 dac + valhalla 2 + dt1990 headphones setup.

I noticed that whenever the gpu is running, I get low pitched buzzing noise. I hear this is a common thing - but I can't work out how to fix it - here's what I've tried.

1. Computer -> Dac (via USB) -> amp -> headphones = buzzing noise
2. Computer -> Dac (via optical) -> amp -> Headphones = buzzing noise
3. Computer -> amp (via 3.5mm out on computer -> Headphones = buzzing noise
4. Computer - > HEadphones (via 3.5mm out on computer = no buzzing at all
5. Computer -> A different, cheap 5.1 channel amp (via optical) -> Bookshelf speakers = no buzzing at all --- BUT if the amp and dac are turned on and connected to the computer - they still receive buzz even though the audio is going to the bookshelf speakers - but if I switch off the DAC - then there's no noise.

I've tried plugging everything into the same power outlet - no help
I've tried creating distance from the amp/dac and the computer - no help
There aren't any wireless items in the area - and also this is directly related to gpu usage anyway

It seems like some kind of static coming directly through ANY cable, including optical. I can't for hte LIFE of me work this out - any help would be SUPER appreciated.
 
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Apr 25, 2021 at 7:48 AM Post #2 of 35
For my set up the PC GPU noise was coming through the USB power/ground wires to my DAC/AMP, and I used the ifi iDefender+ to break the connection. The device can also allow you to inject a clean 5V if your DAC is USB powered, otherwise you don't need external power after breaking the USB power/ground connection. My D90 MQA runs off of AC power and doesn't need the USB power to operate, so simply breaking the USB power/ground connection was enough.

iDefender+
https://ifi-audio.com/products/idefender-plus/

iFi iDefender+ USB Audio Ground Loop Eliminator (Type A > A)
https://www.amazon.com/iFi-iDefender-External-Ground-Eliminator/dp/B0849J33T9
Amazon sent me the wrong iDefender+, a USB-A to USB-C model, and ifi were kind enough to send me the correct iDefender+ USB-A to USB-A, and they also included an ifi iSilencer - which needs 5v power, so the iSilencer needs to be in-line first (nearest to your PC USB 5v power) unless you inject clean USB power into the ifi iDefender then the iSilencer would come after the iDefender+ (on the DAC going side) to use the clean power injected through the iDefender+ instead of using the noisy power from the PC USB.

If your setup needs USB 5V power, then you'll want to get a quiet 5V power supply and connect to the USB-C port on the iDefender+. If your DAC already has its own power source and doesn't run off of USB 5v power, then you don't need an external 5V power supply to replace the USB power stopped by the ifi iDefender+. This ifi iPower X worked great with my FiiO M15, and the FiiO DK-1 dock for the M15 already has an external USB power input independent of the USB data input, so I plugged into that power port instead of the iDefender+ - this was before I got the iSilencer:

iPower X
https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipowerx/

iFi iPower X Low Noise Power Supply DC Adapter – Upgrade Your Audio/Video/Electronics (5V)
https://www.amazon.com/iPower-Noise-Power-Supply-Adapter/dp/B0847SVCKT

I also tested the iPower X powering some portable SWL radios which are very sensitive to noisy power, and for the first time I could power them from USB power while listening - I didn't need to disconnect the USB power cord to run on battery only. The iPower X isn't cheap though...

Again, you don't need to add external power through the iDefender+ unless your DAC needs USB 5V power to function. Also, a cheap USB 5v power supply can be used, but those are often noisy and can add noise into the system, so why would I want to do that after putting in all the effort to reduce noise in so many ways?

The iSilencer+ effect isn't subtle, and IDK why (@iFi audio ?) but it sounds better (to me) connected first in series with the iDefender+; plug the iSilencer++ into the PC USB-A port and then plug the iDefender+ into the iSilencer+ and then plug the USB-A cable from the DAC into the iDefender+.
I also upgraded my USB, XLR, and RCA cables with better EMI / RFI shielding and improved basic AC power filtering:
XLR - get 2 packs for a pair - 1 Foot – Quad Balanced Microphone Cable Custom Made by WORLDS BEST CABLES – Using Mogami 2534 Wire and Neutrik NC3MXX-B Male & NC3FXX-B Female XLR Plugs
https://www.amazon.com/Foot-Balanced-Microphone-NC3MXX-B-NC3FXX-B/dp/B00WU1BP10

1 Foot – Directional High-Definition Audio Interconnect Cable Pair Custom Made by WORLDS BEST CABLES – Using Mogami 2549 Wire and Amphenol ACPR Die-Cast, Gold Plated RCA Connectors
https://www.amazon.com/Foot-Directional-High-Definition-Interconnect-Connectors/dp/B01ALFR02Y

The "directional" design use is for the cable's mesh Shield, only one end of the Shield mesh is actually connected to the ground - at the source end - so that any noise "received" over the length of the cable from source to destination (D90 MQA to A90, or TA-20) isn't passed into the destination. It's a simple design hack, but effective.

These are only 1 foot long to reduce the "antenna effect", and if you have a strong RF source - like your phone, a GPU, a wifi transmitter, etc - sitting close to your AMP/DAC then cables can pick up those signals and pass them into your devices, so these cables can reduce the EMI/RFI noise induced pickup to stop from passing on of such EMI/RFI into the devices.

This is the USB cable I use. I found using USB cables with Ferrite Cores at either ends or both ends affected the sound - even if they reduced EMI/RFI noise the net negative effect on the audio rules out using them, confirmed by the cable manufacturers - "don't add slip-on ferrite cores to the cable".

The Jenving (Swedish) company puts actual engineering design into each length of cable to meet established standard specifications (termination load for example), verifies their designs via tests and QA - and I've read a lot of good user reports before I bought them. Not too expensive, but also not cheap, and hard to find - they are made in Sweden and here in the US only officially available from zendata on eBay (zendata eBay Store):

Supra USB 2.0 for audio 0.7-meter (2.3') WHAT HI FI 5-STAR RATED Made In Sweden! (154018467773) ITEM PRICE: US $44.00
That listing is offline, no current eBay link, ask zendata

Here is the Jenving product page for that cable:

USB 2.0 A-B BLUE 0.7M Brand: SUPRA EAN Code: 7330060203886 Article no: 1001907565 E-No: 6243313 Qty/pack: 1
http://www.jenving.com/products/view/usb-2.0-a-b-blue-0.7m-1001907565

Currently out of stock on eBay - not even grey market listings. When I need a cable I find the part number on Jenving.com along with its product page URL and send an eBay message to zendata asking to list it on eBay. Sometimes it happens quickly like the USB cable, but sometimes it took a couple of months - pandemic delays.
Another noise path is AC mains noise. From past experience I've used power filtering, isolation transformers, and power conditioning, but that was because it was for large equipment - for speakers. This time the equipment - lower power draw DAC / AMP were small enough to run both off of a portable standalone Pure Sine Wave Inverter with built-in Battery backup - even a small one could power the DAC / AMP for 8 hours or more. This has worked out great :)
I've run on battery power before for other devices to reduce ground-induced noise, so I now use a Ravpower RP-PB187 battery powered AC power bank to run both my Topping D90 MQA + Xduoo TA-20 / Topping A90 which removes paths for ground loop borne noise. It's run best completely off power, and it runs both my desktop AC powered D90 MQA and Xduoo TA-20 about 10 hours completely independent from AC mains. That is how I would recommend a non-grounded power source to be used, disconnected from power mains when powering 3-prong power devices. Then when your listening session is done, disable the AC inverter (press and hold a button) and disconnect the power cables. Also good for when the power drops or is unreliable where you are listening :)

Portable Power Station 252.7Wh Power House Model: RP-PB187
https://www.ravpower.com/products/rp-pb187-portable-power-station

Portable Power Station RAVPower 252.7Wh/70200mAh Solar Generator, Dual 110V/300W Pure Sine Wave AC Outlet,60W PD and 120W DC Port Backup Lithium Battery for Outdoors Camping Travel Hunting Emergency
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-RAVPower-70200mAh-Generator-Emergency/dp/B085PYYX2B

Again, this isn't necessary to stop the USB borne GPU/PC noise, I'm including it for you and others in case they are interested. I've been chasing and mitigating noise through all the possible paths to improve sound, and so far it has worked out great for me. If you have another such product, or want to buy one with more power storage, be sure and get one with a "Pure Sine Wave AC inverter" for audio applications. I bought this as I have been watching the product for a while - I wanted the smallest unit that would power my DAC/AMP for 8+ hours - and caught it on sale for $159 - direct from Ravpower. I signed up for Ravpower newsletters and waited for the best sale price. $169 to $189 is the usual price on sale. Here is a fun review from Hobotech on the RP-PB187, there are lots of others reviewed by him on his channel, and lots of other review channels cover these devices.
Good luck with your set up, please ask any questions you might have and please come back and let us know what you ended up doing to successfully stop the noise in your audio system. :)
 
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Apr 25, 2021 at 4:51 PM Post #3 of 35
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Apr 25, 2021 at 8:04 PM Post #4 of 35
Good luck with your set up, please ask any questions you might have and please come back and let us know what you ended up doing to successfully stop the noise in your audio system. :)

Thanks a lot for this feedback!

As far as all my testing can show, the issue is through the mains power not through USB or optical connection - When my computer starts sucking power through the wall for my 3090 graphics card - There's interference coming through.

So my guess is that since I don't have access to an external power source, that I'd have to instead find something for power conditioning wh ich I think is expensive :/ it's probably cheaper to just buy a different amp I think sadly..
 
Apr 25, 2021 at 9:47 PM Post #5 of 35
Thanks a lot for this feedback!

As far as all my testing can show, the issue is through the mains power not through USB or optical connection - When my computer starts sucking power through the wall for my 3090 graphics card - There's interference coming through.

So my guess is that since I don't have access to an external power source, that I'd have to instead find something for power conditioning wh ich I think is expensive :/ it's probably cheaper to just buy a different amp I think sadly..
That is one of the overall noise sources as you saw I also treated the power - eventually going off mains to battery.

But, the GPU noise - which is generated by the Nvidia GPU when it "cranks up" the compute for gaming and other processing - GPU co-processing where the GPU is used for off-loading computation from the CPU like AI / Cuda - which all pull more power, but it is the actual GPU on board clock/switching activity of the GPU and it's support circuits that inject EMI/RFI noise into the PC wiring and chassis.

You can get the iDefender+ from Amazon overnight if you have Prime far cheaper than power conditioners, and the iDefender+ is a good first step - it will remove any noise being passed through the USB power/ground to your DAC/AMP.

I knew from other user reports that the ifi iDefender+ was going to remove the GPU noise, but I wanted to mitigate all the other noise sources first to see how far I could get all noise sources mitigated before buying an iDefender+:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ced-usb-dac-review.10519/page-114#post-475832

I got rid of all the noise except for the GPU load-induced noise - so when I started gaming or running Cuda jobs the "buzzing" started up through the "silence". :)

And, I investigated all the alternatives, but still it came to getting the iDefender+:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ced-usb-dac-review.10519/page-133#post-559219
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-575395

"The single ifi iDefender+ + iPower 5v bundle wasn't effective - until I used 2 of them on both my DAC's USB connections, and I am still getting a very faint GPU compute noise when the RCA cables are connected."

So, I certainly can understand your motivation to follow the same path I did :)

But, if you want to get rid of the GPU induced noise first, you can do that with the iDefender+.
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 7:10 AM Post #6 of 35
That is one of the overall noise sources as you saw I also treated the power - eventually going off mains to battery.

But, the GPU noise - which is generated by the Nvidia GPU when it "cranks up" the compute for gaming and other processing - like video watching and co-processing where the GPU is used for off-loading computation from the CPU - like AI / Cuda, which all pull more power, but it is the actual GPU on board clock/switching activity of the GPU itself and it's support circuits that inject EMI/RFI noise into the PC wiring and chassis - coming out through the ground which gets carried out of the PC through any connected external wires - like the USB wire to the DAC and once it's in the DAC the connections from the DAC to the Headphone AMP amplify it.

You can get the iDefender+ from Amazon overnight if you have Prime for cheaper than power conditioning, and it is a good first step - it will remove any noise being passed through the USB power/ground to your DAC => AMP, and then if there is any noise left, do what I did and continue improving each noise path. :)

I knew from other user reports that the ifi iDefender+ was going to do something, but I wanted to mitigate all the other noise sources first to see how far I could get the noise down before buying an iDefender+:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ced-usb-dac-review.10519/page-114#post-475832

I got rid of all the noise except for the GPU load-induced noise - so when I started gaming or running Cuda jobs the "buzzing" started up through the "silence". :)

And, I investigated all the alternatives, but still it came to getting the iDefender+:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ced-usb-dac-review.10519/page-133#post-559219
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-575395

"The single ifi iDefender+ + iPower 5v bundle wasn't effective - until I used 2 of them on both my DAC's USB connections, and I am still getting a very faint GPU compute noise when the RCA cables are connected."

So, I certainly can understand your motivation to follow the same path I did :)

But, if you want to get rid of the GPU induced noise first, you can do that with the iDefender+.

Have you considered iSilencer by any chance?
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 7:24 AM Post #7 of 35
Thanks a lot for this feedback!

As far as all my testing can show, the issue is through the mains power not through USB or optical connection - When my computer starts sucking power through the wall for my 3090 graphics card - There's interference coming through.

Logical guess... but wrong.

Any time you here noises from a DAC caused by moving a mouse or things changing on a computer monitor, it's coming via the USB cable.

The iDefender+ is a great solution. An iPurifier3 would be an even better solution.
 
Apr 26, 2021 at 2:17 PM Post #8 of 35
Have you considered iSilencer by any chance?
Yes :)

In this very long post I now mention I am using the iSilencer+, Click the "Spoiler" Titled - "Using the ifi Defender+ + iSilencer+ + iPower X":
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/buzzing-during-gpu-usage.957420/post-16317177

"The iSilencer+ effect isn't subtle, and IDK why (@iFi audio ?) but it sounds better (to me) connected first in series with the iDefender+; plug the iSilencer++ into the PC USB-A port and then plug the iDefender+ into the iSilencer+ and then plug the USB-A cable from the DAC into the iDefender+."
Logical guess... but wrong.

Any time you here noises from a DAC caused by moving a mouse or things changing on a computer monitor, it's coming via the USB cable.

The iDefender+ is a great solution. An iPurifier3 would be an even better solution.
I use a BT keyboard with built-in trackpad, so I never heard the mouse movement noises, but I have seen video reports on such.

The last major noise source I needed to mitigate was PC/"GPU compute" (running games/Cuda jobs) noise,after cleaning up the rest of my noise sources.

The iDefender+ mitigation of the PC/"GPU compute" noise was like "flipping a switch", the PC/"GPU compute" noise was very much annoyingly there without the iDefender+. After inserting the iDefender+ inline with the USB cable between the PC / DAC, the GPU noise was gone.

The iSilencer+ effect as now plugged into the PC USB-A port in front of the iDefender+ isn't subtle.

But the iSilencer+ functionality is lower in importance for my needs than was getting rid of the PC/GPU noise with the iDefender+ functionality interrupting the USB power/ground lines.
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 4:35 PM Post #9 of 35
Yes :)

In this very long post I now mention I am using the iSilencer+, Click the "Spoiler" Titled - "Using the ifi Defender+ + iSilencer+ + iPower X":
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/buzzing-during-gpu-usage.957420/post-16317177

"The iSilencer+ effect isn't subtle, and IDK why (@iFi audio ?) but it sounds better (to me) connected first in series with the iDefender+; plug the iSilencer++ into the PC USB-A port and then plug the iDefender+ into the iSilencer+ and then plug the USB-A cable from the DAC into the iDefender+."

I use a BT keyboard with built-in trackpad, so I never heard the mouse movement noises, but I have seen video reports on such.

The last major noise I needed to mitigate was "GPU compute" (running games/Cuda jobs) noise - after cleaning up the rest of my noise sources.

The iDefender+ effect on the "CPU compute" noise was like "flipping a switch", the GPU noise was very much annoyingly there without the iDefender+ and then the GPU noise was gone, after inserting the iDefender+.

The iSilencer+ effect as now plugged into the PC USB-A port in front of the iDefender+ isn't subtle.

@iFi audio - using the iPurifier3 at the DAC end of the USB cable, would I keep the iSilencer+ in series on that same USB cable path, or should I move the iSilencer+ to a free USB-A port on my motherboard to further reduce system noise?
You have PMs :)
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 4:49 PM Post #10 of 35
You have PMs :)
@iFi audio - using the iPurifier3 at the DAC end of the USB cable, would I keep the iSilencer+ in series on that same USB cable path, or should I move the iSilencer+ to a free USB-A port on my motherboard to further reduce system noise?
"Double whammy."
"
As well as plugging the iSilencer+ into the active USB port between the computer and DAC, it can also be plugged into unused USB ports too. This will further reduce radiated EMI.

Each time the number of units (and therefore the number ANC II circuits) is doubled, noise reduction capability also doubles.

Double whammy."
https://ifi-audio.com/products/isilencer-plus/
Double Whammy.JPG
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 4:52 PM Post #11 of 35
you can purify, silence, or defend that noisy source all you want. Or get a new source a quality music server
 
Apr 26, 2021 at 5:05 PM Post #12 of 35
you can purify, silence, or defend that noisy source all you want. Or get a new source a quality music server
What specific improvements are you expecting from your imagined equipment replacement?

The GPU noise from the Nvidia GPU wouldn't be in a dedicated network server device used a network streamer with an internal DAC that would get rid of the need for an external USB cable, but that would introduce the use of Wifi and the use of much poorer DAC and headphone amplifier in a phone or tablet - as the resulting analog signal still needs to reach the wired headphones / IEMs.

If you fed the digitail signal from that added cost network storage / streamer device into a headphone DAC/AMP across the network you would be incurring additional high costs and introduce other problems - with solutions that would require even higher costs.

Many of us need inexpensive solutions to mitigate the USB noise from our laptops and PC's connected via USB to an external DAC / AMPs, and ifi produces those simple inexpensive devices for us. The ifi dongles add some additional costs, but not so much as you are suggesting we spend.

The USB power/ground wires - independent of the USB data lines - carries the noise from the PC GPU which is blocked by the iDefender+, that is all it does.

Just as good might be to clip the power/ground wire pair of the USB cable, or buy a "data only" USB cable. But, I haven't been able to find a data-only USB cable to purchase and try / compare to the iDefender+ solution.

The noise on the PC USB data lines which can affect the digital signal, is cleaned up by the iSilencer - which doesn't remove the noise from the USB power/ground pair - is that correct @iFi audio ? Either way the iDefender+ only interrupts the power/ground signal pair of the USB cable which doesn't affect the data lines.

Any time you have an external USB cable you need some kind of input signal cleaning. Most DAC hardware doesn't seem to do a very good job of cleaning up the USB power and USB data line noise, which can go past the DAC down the noise chain to the Headphone amplifier and out the headphone / speaker output.

Ifi does that noise cleaning with it's DAC's (Streamers?) and builds these external components for the devices that don't have adequate input noise mitigation.

I would love to hear your specific hardware and architecture recommendations. :)
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 5:23 PM Post #13 of 35
It’s not imagined but what I have done and many have. And galvanized USB ports on dacs are not rare anymore.
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 5:44 PM Post #14 of 35
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It’s not imagined but what I have done and many have. And galvanized USB ports on dacs are not rare anymore.
What specific make / model of hardware options are you recommending?

Which DAC, DAC/AMP, or Streamer hardware have the "galvanized" USB port(s) and also have other USB power/data line noise cleaning?

Singxer / GD-Audio / Gustard recommend an external device with independent digital signal reclocker / further noise cleaning / plus an external clock for digital synchronization - pre-cleaning of the digital signal/power - be placed in front of their DACs and Streamers which also have internal noise mitigation / power cleaning / re-clocking - and they also recommend - and provide an input for - an external "clock standard" in addition to the internal clock their components already have.

All of those components add up quickly to being many $$$$'s.

I don't want to spend that much money, I only need to remove the PC / GPU noise induced through the external USB cable to my DAC :)

It is much less expensive to spend $50 for the iDefender+ + $50 for the iSilencer+ to remove the GPU/PC noise before it reaches my D90 MQA / A90 / Xduoo TA-20.

Not so sure I need the iPurifier 3, as that is another $129... maybe later :)
 
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Apr 26, 2021 at 5:55 PM Post #15 of 35
Thats just too confusing and what?

75$ jitterbugs and 50$ silencers looks like the price point your at. been there done that. Look to my sig for what i have or don't have. Chord line of DAC desktops all have galvanized HD ports. The problem is you sound like you are looking for patch jobs for your noise, as opposed to heavy lifting and expense of solving the problem.
 

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