Beyerdynamic Amiron Home (the new T90)
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siberianmoon

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Just to make it clear for everybody, it isn't price fixing if the manufacturer distributes its own product for a certain price and the rest of the supply chain is then free to add whatever margin they want on top of that. Fixing prices would mean that Beyerdynamic tells the shops that they cannot sell their product below a fixed price even if the shops could lower their margins in hopes of selling more units. Just like the shops are free to sell the stuff at their own price levels, Beyerdynamic is free to distribute its stuff at their own price levels.
 
Regional "price fixing" is a different thing, i.e. if Beyerdynamic really gives lower prices to a distributor who intends to take the product to Canadian market vs. someone else who targets German customers. This is really common and basically it means that Beyerdynamic isn't as successful in Canada as it is Germany and the rest of Europe. Hell, it could even be partially down to Canada and Germany having different taxation or other related costs that affect the retail price level.
 
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ostewart

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Currency exchange rates play a big role in pricing too, as the distributor will have to purchase the goods at a certain price and that depends on the currency exchange rate, which €-£ is bad at the moment. And taxes as stated above.
 
Also I would like to say, what is the point in having a MSRP if the distributor just sells to the retailer and then they are free to do what they like, that would destroy business relationships with other dealers etc...
 
It's a bigger issue than you think, so no you cannot just pass it on to a dealer and let them price it how they want.
 
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siberianmoon

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  Also I would like to say, what is the point in having a MSRP if the distributor just sells to the retailer and then they are free to do what they like, that would destroy business relationships with other dealers etc...
If MSRP was taken for a literal order, then it would violate the anti-price fixing laws in many countries. That would be highly illegal. Sure, having an MSRP sounds like a suggestion for the retailers to silently agree to a fixed price (again sort of illegal, harder to prove), but in many cases the shops just use it as a trick to make their prices seem lower. "MSRP $1000, now you pay only $899!"
 
But even if shops initially agreed to following the MSRP, then the more popular shops would gain more customers and less popular would starve and they would have to cut their prices – again effectively slicing the MSRP. Everybody would have to be corrupt down to the bone to make it work. I don't think the headphone market is big enough for this sort of global conspiracy.
 
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ostewart

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I'm not saying they should stick to the MSRP, but it's good to have as a base to go off, then they can put x amount off MSRP which helps sell.

Nowadays no one can compete with Amazon which is a shame.
 
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CBonUK

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  At the end of the day, the consumer always wants the lowest price, but if they choose to pay full price that is their choice, if you don't want to pay for it don't buy it. It's the same with saying something is worth the money, that's the users own opinion.
 
There is no point arguing saying people are being shafted etc... If people are buying them, then that is their choice to pay the amount they pay.
 
The other side of the argument is that sellers are always putting the prices down, sometimes to wholesale prices, which out prices any smaller companies and they will go out of business or not buy anything of a certain brand as they cannot make enough margin on it, which is why you won't get the products in a lot of main stores. This is where trying to control what people sell at is very important, and a big part of how businesses function.

​Im not arguing, I'm expressing my opinion.  As you said in your post above.. it all boils down to opinion, and each of us is entitled to put forward our own.  To say there is no point doing this is essentially a method of censorship, and living in the free world, I don't believe in that.  I have no problem with people paying full price for an item.  If someone has enough money to buy an item regardless of price, then that is their business and good fortune.  The fact remains though, that for each and every person who can afford to do that, there are tenfold more who cannot, and for whom fairness in pricing policy is more important. 

​I do take your point regarding smaller businesses, but that is something, sadly, that we will never eradicate.  The fault lays at the greed of big corporations who think the be all and end all of existence is maximum profit.  Whilst there are multi national corporations, small businesses will always be unable to compete.  Sadly I fear we are beyond trying to correct that. But I see no evidence of this in this instance since, actually, the cheapest prices I can obtain for the DT1990 actually comes from an independent retailer rather than one of the larger conglomerates.  If, indeed, beyerdynamic are trying to control what their customers sell at, they are failing.  Since, as you say, sellers put prices down, put items on sale, undercut each other left right and centre.  Its just not happening.  The only way to be fair with price setting is for the minimum price to still allow the small businesses a profit.  Which means not giving the massive economies of scale that must apply to larger buyers.  Ive seen this in practically every area of business.  Manufacturers offer discounts to their largest buyers which their smallest cannot even buy for.  And that is equally unfair.  But then perhaps it is for the small business to try and evolve and offer something that the online sellers cannot.  Personal service rather than the robotic treatment you get if you want to talk to someone on Amazon for example.  There is no doubt that if you buy from the high street retailer you get (in some instances) personal service and better follow up.  But even with that it seems that some of them are disinterested.  I don't really know what the solution is, but what I do know, is the price fluctuation and differentials on these audio items is ridiculous.
 
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BunnyNamedCraig

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​Im not arguing, I'm expressing my opinion.  As you said in your post above.. it all boils down to opinion, and each of us is entitled to put forward our own.  To say there is no point doing this is essentially a method of censorship, and living in the free world, I don't believe in that.  I have no problem with people paying full price for an item.  If someone has enough money to buy an item regardless of price, then that is their business and good fortune.  The fact remains though, that for each and every person who can afford to do that, there are tenfold more who cannot, and for whom fairness in pricing policy is more important. 


​I do take your point regarding smaller businesses, but that is something, sadly, that we will never eradicate.  The fault lays at the greed of big corporations who think the be all and end all of existence is maximum profit.  Whilst there are multi national corporations, small businesses will always be unable to compete.  Sadly I fear we are beyond trying to correct that. But I see no evidence of this in this instance since, actually, the cheapest prices I can obtain for the DT1990 actually comes from an independent retailer rather than one of the larger conglomerates.  If, indeed, beyerdynamic are trying to control what their customers sell at, they are failing.  Since, as you say, sellers put prices down, put items on sale, undercut each other left right and centre.  Its just not happening.  The only way to be fair with price setting is for the minimum price to still allow the small businesses a profit.  Which means not giving the massive economies of scale that must apply to larger buyers.  Ive seen this in practically every area of business.  Manufacturers offer discounts to their largest buyers which their smallest cannot even buy for.  And that is equally unfair.  But then perhaps it is for the small business to try and evolve and offer something that the online sellers cannot.  Personal service rather than the robotic treatment you get if you want to talk to someone on Amazon for example.  There is no doubt that if you buy from the high street retailer you get (in some instances) personal service and better follow up.  But even with that it seems that some of them are disinterested.  I don't really know what the solution is, but what I do know, is the price fluctuation and differentials on these audio items is ridiculous.

This is exactly what we are trying to do at MTME (or ironically enough if you don't know "music to my ear" in Pittsburgh). We are aurhorized dealers for many brands including beyerdynamic. Like you said, we feel that by trying to go above and beyond with customer service and also being on here doing A/B between headphones and gear are 2 ways we can show we care about the customer, and provide support to people that don't even buy from us....

Before I started being the voice for MTME here on headfi I was a headfi'r. I found this store by seeing that they were having meet ups where people could bring their own gear in and listen to marks. I didn't even know the store existed before that.. turns out I really liked the store and the inventory is something you can't find anywhere this close. I built a relationship with Mark and really liked his store and how he treats his customers. And now here we are..

we want to show that customer interaction like this is just the start. When you spend X amount of dollars on equipment or gear, it is nice to know that you have someone "real" you can go to and know to take care of any potential problems ect..... anyways I don't want to deter from the topic anymore, just trying to be a voice for the "little guy". If you guys have any questions about products or want to know if we are running any headfi specials you are always free to PM me

-Craig
 
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CBonUK

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This is exactly what we are trying to do at MTME (or ironically enough if you don't know "music to my ear" in Pittsburgh). We are aurhorized dealers for many brands including beyerdynamic. Like you said, we feel that by trying to go above and beyond with customer service and also being on here doing A/B between headphones and gear are 2 ways we can show we care about the customer, and provide support to people that don't even buy from us....

Before I started being the voice for MTME here on headfi I was a headfi'r. I found this store by seeing that they were having meet ups where people could bring their own gear in and listen to marks. I didn't even know the store existed before that.. turns out I really liked the store and the inventory is something you can't find anywhere this close. I built a relationship with Mark and really liked his store and how he treats his customers. And now here we are..

we want to show that customer interaction like this is just the start. When you spend X amount of dollars on equipment or gear, it is nice to know that you have someone "real" you can go to and know to take care of any potential problems ect..... anyways I don't want to deter from the topic anymore, just trying to be a voice for the "little guy". If you guys have any questions about products or want to know if we are running any headfi specials you are always free to PM me

-Craig

:)  Glad to have provided you with the opportunity for a plug Craig.  It certainly sounds that yours is the sort of store I wish we had local to me here in England !  Sadly they are few and far between.  I have spoken to a couple on the phone but as soon as they realise you are only at the "requesting info" stage, they shut down and minimise their input.  I would go in to stores in person but the closest to me is a 90 minute drive and their selection of demo models is woefully inadequate in any case.  Care to open up a UK Branch ?  Id me happy to head it up for you.  I have lots of ideas that are customer facing and service oriented :)
 
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BunnyNamedCraig

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:)  Glad to have provided you with the opportunity for a plug Craig.  It certainly sounds that yours is the sort of store I wish we had local to me here in England !  Sadly they are few and far between.  I have spoken to a couple on the phone but as soon as they realise you are only at the "requesting info" stage, they shut down and minimise their input.  I would go in to stores in person but the closest to me is a 90 minute drive and their selection of demo models is woefully inadequate in any case.  Care to open up a UK Branch ?  Id me happy to head it up for you.  I have lots of ideas that are customer facing and service oriented :)

Yeah I would love to be a part of a new over seas branch ha. We have no problem talking in the "requesting info" phase. That's exactly what part of my job is so feel free to PM me,That and getting acclimated to all the product in the store (which i don't mind in the slightest :wink:.
 
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JerseyD

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Staying off-topic (Amiron) one last time for clarity. The USA market operates differently than Europe in that Beyer-USA does indeed set the prices at which it forces dealers to sell (with their strict Minimum Advertised Price or MAP policy), with the penalty for violations being that you are no longer permitted to be an Authorized Beyer Dealer and they will not sell you any more merchandise.
 
It seems like manufacturers should sell to dealers at a fixed price and allow dealers to sell at whatever price they want. In practice, this leads to large dealers forcing small dealers out of business, and I can understand Beyer wanting a level playing field for all their dealers.  That said, there are 3rd party sellers on Amazon breaking the MAP policy all the time, and they often turn out to be sellers from foreign countries (who are not technically Authorized USA Dealers).  This is hard for Beyer to police, and it ends up hurting the rule-following USA dealers.
 
Had to get that off my chest.  Feeling better now!  Hey, how about that sweet sounding Amiron? (although I personally prefer the DT1990 
)
 
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tungt88

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My understanding is that most of those 3rd party sellers are Chinese/Nigerian scam artists. This has happened with a lot of popular electronics, including PC gaming video cards. Offering a recently released $600 item for "only" $300 or less should raise up warning flags already. 
 
There was a long article on a news website about how Amazon doesn't really crack down on these guys nearly as much as they should, because they drive a lot of business into Amazon's main website (in a way, the scammers [unknowingly] actually help Amazon do a legal "bait-and-switch", since buyers are "already" in Amazon's "virtual storefront", as it were). 
 
This way, the bean counters over at Amazon can (correctly) claim that their sales/revenue is going up (regardless of the actual quality of the products). Amazon has made some posturing as to policing up the counterfeiters, but because they generate a nice profit for Amazon, both directly (in terms of money spent by buyers) and indirectly (new visits to Amazon's website, more purchases, and more clicks, which allows the bean counters, and ultimately Jeff Bezos, to claim that Amazon is doing well, which makes Amazon stock very reliable, and on a steady climb). Amazon is basically trying to have it both ways. 
 
The counterfeiters/scammers win b/c how the heck can small Western companies sue someone over in China (which has, quite frankly, a colossal counterfeit market)? Western intellectual property laws don't exist over there (and ideas are commonly seen as "resources to be shared by all", not jealously guarded trade secrets), and lawsuits end up being very costly (as even the mammoth known as Nike has found, when they attempted to sue a small-time Chinese copycat)? Besides, all business in China over $10k USD means that the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) is involved at some level; so in Nike's case, influential local Chinese officials were able to successfully stonewall, and then stop, the lawsuit (which cost Nike a pretty penny, and Nike basically gained nothing but egg on their face, for all their efforts). 
 
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CBonUK

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  Staying off-topic (Amiron) one last time for clarity. The USA market operates differently than Europe in that Beyer-USA does indeed set the prices at which it forces dealers to sell (with their strict Minimum Advertised Price or MAP policy), with the penalty for violations being that you are no longer permitted to be an Authorized Beyer Dealer and they will not sell you any more merchandise.
 
It seems like manufacturers should sell to dealers at a fixed price and allow dealers to sell at whatever price they want. In practice, this leads to large dealers forcing small dealers out of business, and I can understand Beyer wanting a level playing field for all their dealers.  That said, there are 3rd party sellers on Amazon breaking the MAP policy all the time, and they often turn out to be sellers from foreign countries (who are not technically Authorized USA Dealers).  This is hard for Beyer to police, and it ends up hurting the rule-following USA dealers.
 
Had to get that off my chest.  Feeling better now!  Hey, how about that sweet sounding Amiron? (although I personally prefer the DT1990 
)

​That's a fair point JerseyD.  And it highlights the problem too.  Whilst there may be local rules to North America or Europe specifically, it seems the rule (MAP) needs to be GLOBAL.  In these days of worldwide shipping at minimal cost, its the only way to prevent what you have said above.  My complaint was that the cans concerned were cheaper in Canada than in Europe.  (And oddly, significantly cheaper than in the USA).  Do Beyer have a manufacturing plant in the USA or are ALL of their products manufactured in Germany ?  Cos my point was, how the hell can they sell them to Canadian resellers and have them sell the same product for almost £100 / US$125 / CDN$160 less than it goes for in the UK.  Seems its what you described only in reverse. 

Anyway, how about those Amirons, too, lol.  (Although I also personally prefer the DT1990 and cant wait to re-order another pair, even if I DO have to pay more than I did originally, grrr).
 
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CBonUK

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  My understanding is that most of those 3rd party sellers are Chinese/Nigerian scam artists. This has happened with a lot of popular electronics, including PC gaming video cards. Offering a recently released $600 item for "only" $300 or less should raise up warning flags already. 
 
There was a long article on a news website about how Amazon doesn't really crack down on these guys nearly as much as they should, because they drive a lot of business into Amazon's main website (in a way, the scammers [unknowingly] actually help Amazon do a legal "bait-and-switch", since buyers are "already" in Amazon's "virtual storefront", as it were). 
 
This way, the bean counters over at Amazon can (correctly) claim that their sales/revenue is going up (regardless of the actual quality of the products). Amazon has made some posturing as to policing up the counterfeiters, but because they generate a nice profit for Amazon, both directly (in terms of money spent by buyers) and indirectly (new visits to Amazon's website, more purchases, and more clicks, which allows the bean counters, and ultimately Jeff Bezos, to claim that Amazon is doing well, which makes Amazon stock very reliable, and on a steady climb). Amazon is basically trying to have it both ways. 
 
The counterfeiters/scammers win b/c how the heck can small Western companies sue someone over in China (which has, quite frankly, a colossal counterfeit market)? Western intellectual property laws don't exist over there (and ideas are commonly seen as "resources to be shared by all", not jealously guarded trade secrets), and lawsuits end up being very costly (as even the mammoth known as Nike has found, when they attempted to sue a small-time Chinese copycat)? Besides, all business in China over $10k USD means that the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) is involved at some level; so in Nike's case, influential local Chinese officials were able to successfully stonewall, and then stop, the lawsuit (which cost Nike a pretty penny, and Nike basically gained nothing but egg on their face, for all their efforts). 

​Whilst there are scammers out there, the specifics I was referring to were definitely not.  Unless we want to accuse Amazon itself for being scammers, because they were the ones selling, not 3rd party or marketplace re-sellers. 
 
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Zombie_X

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​Whilst there are scammers out there, the specifics I was referring to were definitely not.  Unless we want to accuse Amazon itself for being scammers, because they were the ones selling, not 3rd party or marketplace re-sellers. 
 
I remember seeing Amazon selling the Amiron's and DT1990's under $500 a bit back, and it was Amazon, not a third party. Amazon sold the DT880 600Ohm for like $160 ate one point if I remember, which is also way below what they normally go for.
 
Anyways, these Amiron's are so damn nice to listen to. They remind me of the DT990 in a ton of ways, just way better. I guess that could eb since they are basically a upgraded T90.
 
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devhen

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I remember seeing Amazon selling the Amiron's and DT1990's under $500 a bit back, and it was Amazon, not a third party. Amazon sold the DT880 600Ohm for like $160 ate one point if I remember, which is also way below what they normally go for.
 
They're down to $178 right now. The DT990 Premium 600 ohm is at about the same price. They seem to have dropped in price significantly. I doubt they're being discontinued but it seems like they've gone down in price since the newer DT1770/DT1990/Amiron came out.
 
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CBonUK

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I'm not saying they should stick to the MSRP, but it's good to have as a base to go off, then they can put x amount off MSRP which helps sell.

Nowadays no one can compete with Amazon which is a shame.

​that's not actually true.  ive found several items cheaper outside of amazon.  For instance, Richer Sounds are selling Sennheiser HD700s at £399 at the moment.  Amazon is almost £90 higher.
 
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