Beyer DT250 / DT770... Is the 770 the best OVERALL?
Dec 5, 2002 at 9:28 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

Duncan

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I know that this question has been answered a multitude of times in various forms... but this website intruiges me, with the fact that the DT770s are marginally cheaper than the DT250s...

So, with me getting ever more tempted to lay the money down on the DT770s ~ is there anything that the DT250s do better??

Oh... and the 600ohm version on that site... I wonder how that'll sound with my XCV2... any idea?

Thanks
 
Dec 5, 2002 at 10:04 PM Post #2 of 13
Duncan,

I can't help you with your question, (wish I could!), but perhaps another question that is (hopefully) related...

As with my 990's, what is the point/purpose of the 600ohm "thing"???

What does "it" do? What is it good for? (as opposed to 80ohm, for eg.)

If you're talking about xcans, shouldn't Audio Advisor be able to give you some advice/info?
 
Dec 5, 2002 at 10:49 PM Post #3 of 13
DT770 advantages:
Killer bass.
More pleasing presentation for some (rock, metal) genres.

DT250 advantages:
Lighter, smaller. For portable use as well. Doesn't require amp.
More neutral than DT770.

Don't know about the 600 ohm version.

Aushadi> ohm is a measure for impedance. If you don't know what that is, I'm not going to go into all the technical details, but...it doesn't really "do" anything, but overall it seems that for the same can, more impedance gives better sound (although it requires a better amp). Of course, that doesn't mean a can with high impedance is better than another with a low impedance. There are cans that have low impedance and still sound top-class - the AT cans, for example.
 
Dec 6, 2002 at 1:23 AM Post #4 of 13
Duncan: Are you refering to the DT250/80 or the DT250/250? The DT250/80 has an advantage in efficiency over the DT770Pro/250 - soundwise I'd chose the 770 here, because I'd rather have a "too much bass phone" than a "recessed highs phone". The DT250/250 is a different beast: Besides the open DT531, which I prefer, the DT250/250 is the most neutral Beyerdynamic I've heard, yet. It still has plenty of punchy bass, but not in the same - to my ears - disturbing amount as the DT770Pro/250. And I find the 250/250 comfier than the 770 - probably due to less clamping force...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Dec 6, 2002 at 2:31 AM Post #5 of 13
The 600 Ohm version is the older version of the 770. The 250 Ohm version of the 770 is supposed to sound better than the 600 Ohm version. Could also be a typo on the site. When I bought my 770's from B&H Photo in the States, their site said 600 Ohms. When I called to ask, it was really the 250 Ohm version they had. (The site was corrected within the hour.)

As for differences, the 250/80 is a more neutral phone. Better for monitoring when too much coloration will affect the final mix. For a headphone meant for professional monitoring, it is very musical and enjoyable for recreational listening. I chose the 770/250 over the 250/80 simply because of the "fun" factor. The 770 is just fun to listen to.
 
Dec 6, 2002 at 2:32 AM Post #6 of 13
Aushadi,

check this out (read all the way to the end for some "shockers"):

http://www.pmillett.addr.com/images/HA4_DS.PDF

http://sound.westhost.com/impedanc.htm

http://www.pmillett.addr.com/Wheatfield/headphones.htm

tagent.com says "High-impedance headphones require more voltage to avoid distortion in the amplifier than low-impedance headphones. Low-efficiency headphones require more voltage than high-efficiency headphones. High-impedance, low-efficiency headphones require lots and lots of voltage.
smily_headphones1.gif
As a rule of thumb, the toughest headphones shouldn't need more than about 24V for the power supply. For a low-voltage rail-to-rail op-amp and low-impedance, high-efficiency headphones, the power supply can be as low as 3V"
 
Dec 6, 2002 at 2:03 PM Post #7 of 13
Thanks, wallijonn - have to do some searching to see if anyone has tried that HA-4 amp!

kyr - of course "it" (impedance) "does something", otherwise the value would be meaningless, so why bother to include it as a spec.?

Presumably impedance is somehow going to affect the sound of the speaker in question, (which is what I imagine we are all ultimately concerned about - even Duncan!), but usually things have to be considered as a whole=system.

Maybe I was unclear, but what I was trying to get at is "What is the reason=design-philosophy for choosing to create a 'phone with an imp. of 600ohm, rather than say, 80ohm?". It would seem that Beyer does or did make 2 versions of some 'phones, differing only in their imp. As far as I know, there are very few 'phones rated at 600ohms, so - Why?

Sometimes it could be a matter of application - what type of amp is expected to be used with this 'phone; sometimes it's a compromise with other issues/components, (closed vs. open) perhaps easier to get that diffuse-field eq.?

But somehow the overall sound is going to be affected. Perhaps I should give the BD folks a call to see if they can give me some idea of the reasoning behind the choice of impedance(s).
 
Dec 6, 2002 at 4:16 PM Post #8 of 13
Aushadi, the obvious HP for different impedence is the Etymotic ER-4. The ER-4S is 100 Ohms; The ER-4P is 27 Ohms. The drivers are exactly the same, the entire difference is in the cables. The folks who own both, or the 4P plus adapter, definitely report an audible difference. Generally speaking, the higher impedence phones are easier for the amplifier to drive than lower frequency phones, so they compromise the sound quality from the amp less.

If you look through Tangent's META42 pages, you'll see that in the META design, the op-amp is essentially isolated from the HPs. The op-amp drives the buffers and the buffers drive the HPs. The buffers are a much easier load for the op-amp to handle so the op-amp will essentially sound better.
 
Dec 7, 2002 at 2:34 AM Post #9 of 13
I own both the DT250-80 and the DT770 and have listened to both thoroughly. Both have their strengths and weakenesses; it largely depends on what you expect from a headphone. I slightly favor the DT770 as you will soon find out.

DT250-80s have the best sound unamped; they sound smooth with emphasis on midrange and bass; relaxed treble. Adding an amp doesn't change the sound much; they're comparably good unamped through a bad source as amped through a really sweet source such as the DVP-NS500V SACD player.

My complaints are they are not as comfortable as the DT770-250, have a slightly honky midrange (refer to the headroom frequency graphs and your own ear if you want to confirm this); voices sound "nasal"-ish. Otherwise if you like neutral sound are better than the 770s. Not as comfortable as the 770s and isolate a lot but not as much.

----

DT770-250s are a great headphone if you give them at least a good (in my experience on par with the DVP-NS500V or greater) source. When in their ideal environment of amplification + good source, they have absolutely incredibly deep, accurate bass, a relaxed but present upper midrange, and really smooth, airy treble which I find very accurate.

The DT770-250s have INCREDIBLE soundstage; People have compared them to the AKG-501 which has one of the most accurate soundstages of any headphone. I think that the airy, fully-extended treble of the DT770s can be attributed to this.

If you're a real maniac and spend thousands on amps and sources, there is no debate: 770s rock in this sort of environment, although the 250s perform quite well too; you just can't get rid of that slight honkiness.

What if you have a bad source or no amp, or both? The 250s are an ideal choice. The 770s sound very sibilant, harsh, and excessively coloured in a low-qual environment while the 250s relaxed treble response and otherwise balanced sound mitigates the problems with bad source.
---------------

I'd like to also state something about my past. I'm a very avid classical musician; I practice violin four hours a day in orchestra and solo environments (and yes, I'm only in high school). I use earplugs whenever possible and I am aware of the damage that occurs to musicians' hearing (110+ dB in full concert environments). I also delve into hard rock, performing improvisation with electric violin in a full rock band, using the same hearing protection as with classical music (I find that jam sessions are quieter than orchestra. Hard to believe but true.)

Also beware the DT770's "thickness" as stated by Todd of HeadRoom: I find that the overall presence of bass is too much on some recordings, such as the Dave Matthews Band's "Under the Table and Dreaming" CD which sounds better on the 250s than the 770s.

When A-B'ing the DT770s and DT250s to a live orchestral performance, I find that the DT770s reproduce the low end of an orchestral sound better than the DT250s, but have an edge of "digital" or "artificial"-ness to the high end. Perhaps this is due to the nature of the redbook recordings I use, or the fact that I own a RO Airhead which is famous for its graininess, or both. The DT250 is more natural but sounds WAY too limited, like someone turned the mids up too much and limited slightly the bottom end and definitely the top end. It still has a good warm sound though.

The DT770s do a way better job at accurately producing rock, hands-down. Why? When a guitarist with heavy distortion strums a chord and is properly amped, a huge mid-low bass resonance-type sound is produced with palm-muting in live environments. This is essential to the feeling of rock. While the DT250s make such a chord audible, it's as if it was edited out of the music on recordings, making rock sound horribly dry. The DT770s do a good job. If you're an audiophile that wants a neutral sound, you probably won't go for hard rock anyways; but the DT770s do the best job at this. The extreme treble air/detail does have some detriment to hard rock but is as overpresent as the DT250's treble is underpresent.

---
In the end, it largely depends on your preferences when listening to music. The DT250 is closer to the sennhesier HD600 sound, while the DT770 I find reproduces other elements more accurately.

Let's have an A/B comparison of the following 'phone characterstics, in no particular order of importance:

1. Detail
Tie between the DT250-80 and DT770-250. The 770 reproduces more treble detail while the DT250 has a more detailed midrange.

2. Soundstage
Hands-down winner is the DT770; which has an ok soundstage with the worst possible sourcing/amping and only gets better as you improve components. DT250 has a very limited, "immediate" soundstage effect. Then again, if you hate soundstage the 250s are the hands-down winner
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3. Frequency extension
The DT770 wins this one; both the low end and the high end are present in good recordings without being overbearing; although it's a fine line - some recordings display sibilance on the 770s or what approaches thick boominess.

4. Neutrality
DT250, hands-down. More neutral headphone frequency-response wise; most people would probably prefer the 250 to the 770 in its balance of sound.

5. Fatigue
The DT250 has less treble fatigue while the DT770 is more mellow-sounding with its smooth bass response. I'd say it's a close tie although I find my ears like the 770s better.

6. Comfort
The DT770 has bigger earcups and a slightly wider headband; I find that it is more comfortable than the DT250.

7. Scalability
The DT770 wins; the sound improves as you spend more on source, amp, interconnects.

8. Budget listening
Due to the ability to sound very good out of relatively horrid sources and going weakly-amped, the DT250 wins hands-down. I would cry if I had to use the 770s out of my soundcard's source but the 250s are ok.

So, there you have it. My detailed opinion.
I'd say this to sum it up: if you like the HD600 sennhesier sound, go for the DT250s. If you like the AKG501s but want bass, go DT770s.


Cheers,
Geek
 
Dec 7, 2002 at 2:41 AM Post #10 of 13
Oh, and one more thing. Duncan, I have heard that you enjoy music loud! I'd try the DT770's, they have a totally different feeling at a loud (over 85dB) volume then what at a normal or quiet level. When you hit the 90+dB mark you'll start getting head-shaking bass which is literally impossible out of the DT250s until you push the drivers way past what is considered a sane volume.

Good luck with your purchase.

Cheers,
Geek
 
Dec 7, 2002 at 7:04 AM Post #11 of 13
Thanks for the extended write up Geek, and thanks everyone else too...

This one line has sealed it for me... Quote:

I'd say this to sum it up: if you like the HD600 sennhesier sound, go for the DT250s. If you like the AKG501s but want bass, go DT770s.


I have a funny feeling that I won't like the DT770s... Yeah, I like things loud (only when the time is right though, rather than habitually)... but I don't really want a couple of subwoofers strapped to my head... I get bass headaches all too easy
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Oh well... seemingly, the quest continues
 
Dec 7, 2002 at 8:26 AM Post #12 of 13
Quote:

Originally posted by Geek
I'd say this to sum it up: if you like the HD600 sennhesier sound, go for the DT250s. If you like the AKG501s but want bass, go DT770s.


Cheers,
Geek


I said the same thing when i first got the 770's back in the Spring. They truely are a great headphone, the only time i whip out my Sennheiser's are for listening to vinyl.
 
Dec 7, 2002 at 10:04 AM Post #13 of 13
Duncan - If you gave me the choice of the DT770pro, DT250 and DT531 I'd pick the 531.
IMHO it shares qualities of both headphones, while it doesn't quite have the bass impact of the 770pro, or quite as smooth and liquid midrange of the 250, it's a halfway mark between the 2 which IMHO is excellent.

Regarding the bass on the 770pro, it's really resonant bass that can be a little too much on them at times, otherwise it's usually great, unless you crank them up a bit in which case the bass can be a little too much for extended listening periods.

You should at least do yourself the favour of having a listen to the 770pro
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If you're visiting Australia any time in the future I'd be happy to give you a listen to my collection
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