Best sound card ever for Music and Movies?

[campos]

What's the best out of these four? Vote Please

 

[phalanger]

As an alternative to soundcards, a good asynchronous USB dac will wipe the floor with just about any internal soundcard when it comes to SQ. So unless you need the extra options that a soundcard gives I'd take that into consideration.

 

[stv014]

Quote:

As an alternative to soundcards, a good asynchronous USB dac will wipe the floor with just about any internal soundcard when it comes to SQ. So unless you need the extra options that a soundcard gives I'd take that into consideration.

 
It is entirely possible to achieve transparent DAC performance (= indistinguishable from an "ideal" DAC in blind testing) with an internal sound card if there are no interference problems in the machine the card is installed in. When interference is indeed an audible issue, an external DAC is preferred, but it does not necessarily have to be asynchronous. On the other hand, a sound card has more features, and is often cheaper at a similar DAC performance. "Wipe the floor with any sound card" (including ones you have no experience with) is just audiophile hyperbole.

 

[chewy4]

Quote:

 
It is entirely possible to achieve transparent DAC performance (= indistinguishable from an "ideal" DAC in blind testing) with an internal sound card if there are no interference problems in the machine the card is installed in. When interference is indeed an audible issue, an external DAC is preferred, but it does not necessarily have to be asynchronous. On the other hand, a sound card has more features, and is often cheaper at a similar DAC performance. "Wipe the floor with any sound card" (including ones you have no experience with) is just audiophile hyperbole.

Word.
 
Xonar Essence ST(X) comes with a book of measurements. It's sparkling clean. If you think a more expensive external DAC sounds better than it is either in your head or that DAC is colored.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

 
It is entirely possible to achieve transparent DAC performance (= indistinguishable from an "ideal" DAC in blind testing) with an internal sound card if there are no interference problems in the machine the card is installed in. When interference is indeed an audible issue, an external DAC is preferred, but it does not necessarily have to be asynchronous. On the other hand, a sound card has more features, and is often cheaper at a similar DAC performance. "Wipe the floor with any sound card" (including ones you have no experience with) is just audiophile hyperbole.

 
Exactly, internal soundcards, especially when talking about flagship soundcards, are very high performing, and easily outperforming external DACs that cost quite more. Like it was pointed already, EMI issues are really the only thing to worry about, and that's related to the environment the soundcard is installed and not the soundcard itself.

 

[cel4145]

For headphone usage, the STX has lower impedance output (10 ohm) than the Titanium HD (36 ohm), making it more suitable for lower impedance headphones. 
 
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Exactly, internal soundcards, especially when talking about flagship soundcards, are very high performing, and easily outperforming external DACs that cost quite more. Like it was pointed already, EMI issues are really the only thing to worry about, and that's related to the environment the soundcard is installed and not the soundcard itself.

 
Agreed. If you have a machine with good components, an internal sound card can work very well. 

 

[proton007]

Quote:

For headphone usage, the STX has lower impedance output (10 ohm) than the Titanium HD (36 ohm), making it more suitable for lower impedance headphones. 
 
 
Agreed. If you have a machine with good components, an internal sound card can work very well. 

 
The only problem I've seen is that sound cards, and for that matter, integrated sound chips as well, only seem to run headphones in a certain range of impedances. Too high, not enough volume and body, and too low sound funny.
 
Those with dedicated amp, like the STX are better, but only capable of driving >80 ohms, otherwise there's an impedance mismatch. If you have a high impedance headphone, I'll say its a pretty good deal, the STX.
 
External DACs solve this problem in the sense that you have to get an amp along with it, which is usually a better power source (much lower output impedance). And that gets translated to "external dac's are better", which is obviously not true.

 

[cel4145]

Quote:

Those with dedicated amp, like the STX are better, but only capable of driving >80 ohms, otherwise there's an impedance mismatch. If you have a high impedance headphone, I'll say its a pretty good deal, the STX.
 
External DACs solve this problem in the sense that you have to get an amp along with it, which is usually a better power source (much lower output impedance). And that gets translated to "external dac's are better", which is obviously not true.

 
I did some AB testing with yesterday with my Grado SR225i (32 ohm) plugged up to the headphone output on the STX, and with the FiiO E17 plugged in between (using it's headphone amp only). I really couldn't be certain that there was a significant difference. So depending on the actual headphones and the external DAC/headphone amp setup, I wonder if in the <$200 budget range whether or not it works out to be better going with the external over the STX even when there is a slight impedance mismatch.  Yet I do like the STX DAC output better than the Fii0. 

 

[obobskivich]

The only problem I've seen is that sound cards, and for that matter, integrated sound chips as well, only seem to run headphones in a certain range of impedances. Too high, not enough volume and body, and too low sound funny.

Those with dedicated amp, like the STX are better, but only capable of driving >80 ohms, otherwise there's an impedance mismatch. If you have a high impedance headphone, I'll say its a pretty good deal, the STX.

External DACs solve this problem in the sense that you have to get an amp along with it, which is usually a better power source (much lower output impedance). And that gets translated to "external dac's are better", which is obviously not true.

I did some AB testing with yesterday with my Grado SR225i (32 ohm) plugged up to the headphone output on the STX, and with the FiiO E17 plugged in between (using it's headphone amp only). I really couldn't be certain that there was a significant difference. So depending on the actual headphones and the external DAC/headphone amp setup, I wonder if in the <$200 budget range whether or not it works out to be better going with the external over the STX even when there is a slight impedance mismatch.  Yet I do like the STX DAC output better than the Fii0. 

Both of you are ultimately right. Some reasons:

- The STX (and all of the other Asus "amp" cards afaik) uses the TPA6120, I have yet to see a solution with Zout lower than around 10 ohms. This is fairly low all things considered, but if you have a reactive load, it will cause more deviation than with a stable load or the same reactive load on a 1 ohm (or lower) Zsource. It isn't as dramatic as you would expect with an OTL or a receiver, that may have a Zsource upwards of 400ohms though.

- Grado headphones are inherently VERY stable though, and apart from a few of the hoity-toity models really don't care (and even the hoity-toity models will still sound good enough on basically anything with a headphone jack) what they're plugged into, at least in terms of Zsource:Znom interaction.

If you went with something like an HD 650, the STX (or any of the other dozen or so TPA6120 based amps out there) will do more to the sound than will something like the Grace m903 or April Eximus. I'm too lazy (sue me!) to figure out exactly what the FR deviation would look like, but basically if it isn't more than 2 dB, I don't care (and you shouldn't either ) because that's in that wishy-washy JND area. I don't know if 10R (ish) is enough to do that or not.

To the thread question, I would probably vote X-Fi Elite Pro or the upcoming Recon Z series flagship (which isn't available yet, and which I don't know anything about yet) - tons of features and tons of quality. For pure home theater, the HDMI equipped Xonar or X-Fi would be better, and for just music you probably don't need to spend anywhere near as much money as any of those cards; something simple, like even the Audiophile 2496, would be appropriate. I'm assuming you aren't using the soundcard to drive the headphones in any of these scenarios btw.

 

[cel4145]

Quote:

Both of you are ultimately right. Some reasons:
- The STX (and all of the other Asus "amp" cards afaik) uses the TPA6120, I have yet to see a solution with Zout lower than around 10 ohms. This is fairly low all things considered, but if you have a reactive load, it will cause more deviation than with a stable load or the same reactive load on a 1 ohm (or lower) Zsource. It isn't as dramatic as you would expect with an OTL or a receiver, that may have a Zsource upwards of 400ohms though.
- Grado headphones are inherently VERY stable though, and apart from a few of the hoity-toity models really don't care (and even the hoity-toity models will still sound good enough on basically anything with a headphone jack) what they're plugged into, at least in terms of Zsource:Znom interaction.

 
You just lost me. But I'll take your word that the Grados are very stable 

 

[obobskivich]

You just lost me. But I'll take your word that the Grados are very stable 

Okay, so with an impedance plot, you look at impedance (complex resistance in an AC system) over frequency, and if it moves around a lot (huge peaks and valleys) it will "react" to Zsource of the amplifier in a non-linear manner which will mean the FR changes. Whereas if it's relatively flat, you can ratchet Zsource up to the moon and all you'll do is attenuate the signal.

Here's some charts and graphs and stuff:
http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1389
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoSR225i.pdf (Grado measurement with impedance plot)
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf (Random Reactive Headphone of the Day (RRHD))
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/tipstricks.htm
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#resistancehigh

 

[Roller]

Quote:

...for gaming and music you probably don't need to spend anywhere near as much money as any of those cards; something simple, like even the Audiophile 2496, would be appropriate. I'm assuming you aren't using the soundcard to drive the headphones in any of these scenarios btw.

 
Do keep in mind that gaming benefits from a soundcard that has gaming audio features, something Asus cards partially support and Creative cards fully support. Something like a base Creative X-Fi Titanium will do the trick, but output quality is far superior on the Titanium HD, with a middle ground being the X-Fi powered Auzentech cards.

 

[obobskivich]

Do keep in mind that gaming benefits from a soundcard that has gaming audio features, something Asus cards partially support and Creative cards fully support. Something like a base Creative X-Fi Titanium will do the trick, but output quality is far superior on the Titanium HD, with a middle ground being the X-Fi powered Auzentech cards.

Whoops! I meant to say "for just music" there! :eek:

Time for bed!

 

[stv014]

Quote:

Whoops! I meant to say "for just music" there!

 
Well, the thread title is "Best sound card ever for Music and Movies?", so you should probably have said "movies" instead of "gaming".

 

[obobskivich]

Well, the thread title is "Best sound card ever for Music and Movies?", so you should probably have said "movies" instead of "gaming".

Posting while exhausted is a bad thing methinks.

I think for music and movies it depends on if home theater is a concern or not, if you need to work with a theater system I would suggest the HDMI cards, but otherwise a pure multimedia flagship would be my pick (like the X-Fi EP). If we're just watching movies in stereo though, and listening to music, very basic hardware is entirely suitable - no need for complex DSP or processing features imho.