Best Class A Amp Ever? Mark Johnson's T2 Class A Amplifier
Sep 10, 2019 at 12:55 PM Post #31 of 55
Also, for the record, I think people who are strong advocates for 'objective' (whatever that means) view points shouldn't discuss components they are measuring in subjective terms. Just post the measurements, make a couple of points regarding the results specific to those measurements and move on. Anything beyond that seems... contradictory. Especially if that person designs and sells their own gear. Just my .02.
 
Sep 10, 2019 at 1:04 PM Post #32 of 55
I've built and listened to the T2 and as much as I appreciate what Tomchr has done, people need to understand that he comes from a very different and strongly opinionated design perspective.
Guilty as charged. :) I definitely come from a science/engineering based perspective.

Finally, I think the T2 is another important lesson in how low distortion is not a holy grail. Is it nice to be able to hear an ant walking along the studio floor during the recording? Sure. But it doesn't make or break an amp/speaker/headphone for me.
A 'tubey' (high low-order distortion) presentation can be nice on some tracks. I generally find, though, that I revert to the low distortion amps. But that's me.

And you're right that the T2 can be hacked and modified to an extent not possible with a commercial design. That's a big part of DIY as well.

Tom
 
Sep 11, 2019 at 11:00 AM Post #35 of 55
Guilty as charged. :) I definitely come from a science/engineering based perspective.


A 'tubey' (high low-order distortion) presentation can be nice on some tracks. I generally find, though, that I revert to the low distortion amps. But that's me.

I find this true as well, While the "Tubey" sound can be enjoyed...when I switch back to a super low distortion amp...sure sounds better.

:)
 
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Sep 11, 2019 at 5:15 PM Post #36 of 55
I am listening with the T2 right now, Larry Carolton's Discovery and Eva Cassadiy's, Simply Eva and Songbird...and the experience is absolutley
EXCELLENT with this amp and all its "worts". Absolutley Stunning.

Using a set of Audio Technica MSR7's at the moment....these were on Tyl's Hall of Fame awhile back...

Alex
 
Sep 12, 2019 at 9:22 PM Post #37 of 55
I am listening with the T2 right now, Larry Carolton's Discovery and Eva Cassadiy's, Simply Eva and Songbird...and the experience is absolutley
EXCELLENT with this amp and all its "worts". Absolutley Stunning.

Using a set of Audio Technica MSR7's at the moment....these were on Tyl's Hall of Fame awhile back...

Alex

I have all your titles....on LP.

I have the little Alex Cavelli "Liquid Spark" amp, and it too, will curl your toes :)

.
 
Sep 12, 2019 at 10:00 PM Post #38 of 55
4. I found a linear power supply (simple LM317 with an LC 'Noise Nuke') to be preferable to the SMPS - although the SMPS does sound very good. The LPS is smoother to me.

The designer's power input filter doesn't work very well - its into saturation, as pointed out on the DIYA thread and potentially confirmed by @tomchr's measurements. Fortunately its DIY so you can improve it yourself, just reduce the number of turns on the core. 3 would be about right.

There is another issue to watch out for which comes from the use of SMPS's and that's common-mode noise. There are no silver bullets for this.
 
Sep 12, 2019 at 11:12 PM Post #39 of 55
The designer's power input filter doesn't work very well - its into saturation, as pointed out on the DIYA thread and potentially confirmed by @tomchr's measurements. Fortunately its DIY so you can improve it yourself, just reduce the number of turns on the core. 3 would be about right.

There is another issue to watch out for which comes from the use of SMPS's and that's common-mode noise. There are no silver bullets for this.

I don't see anyone saying the inductor core is saturated in that thread - only early speculation that it was possible. Would be good to know if that's the case though. Another member bypassed the filter entirely with a shunt regulated PS IIRC with good results.

The silver bullet for an SMPS is a linear power supply. But a Noise Nuke works very well (whether that would interfere with the in-built filter, I don't know).

I look forward to the diy community making helpful contributions on improving the T2, especially as the designer gives his blessing to have at it. I think it has a lot of potential for minimal cost.
 
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Sep 13, 2019 at 9:12 AM Post #42 of 55
Mark did reply on this subject and as usual he is cryptic in his response, mainly because he is trying to get you to think and learn, thats a good thing....

Here is the full line catalog from Laird Performance Materials pdf link. The exact Laird part used in the T2 circuit is listed (a) on the schematic; and also (b) in the Bill Of Materials.

The curves and graphs and explanations in the catalog, may help you decide whether any ferrite bead designed for EMI suppression, might ever undergo "saturation" when subject to DC current flow {as in the second stage of the T2 power supply filter}. If saturation can occur, at what number of amp-turns does saturation become a problem for EMI suppression beads? Surely Laird customers would want to know, and surely Laird would provide this information.

https://www.laird.com/sites/default/files/2018-11/Catalog_FERRITE CORES 0717.pdf

Its also interesting that Wushuliu replaces it with a piece of wire and noticed no audible difference?
(sans LPS).

I think this goes back to subjective measurements that can be measured but their ultimate affect is somewhat in doubt, especially with our "human" ear transducers...

The neat thing is folks are looking at this T2 project and doing things to change and or improve it..this is indeed the spririt of DIY...

Alex
 
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Sep 13, 2019 at 11:47 AM Post #43 of 55
Post #21 - 'its possible to infer the saturation limit, <130mA'. The amp takes quite a lot more than 130mA. Curiously though Elvee says it doesn't really matter - yet @tomchr's measurements show ultrasonic noise as an issue.
There are two inductors in the T2 supply filter: A common-mode choke that's an off-the-shelf part and an inductor that's made from several turns of wire on a ferrite core. The designer went through quite a bit of trouble designing the filter, but appears to have neglected to verify that the filter actually worked once implemented. In the documentation, the designer describes how he extrapolated from the data sheet for the ferrite core to determine the inductance of the implemented inductor. His argument is basically, "many turns -> more inductance than you can shake a stick at" (I'm paraphrasing, but the gist of my paraphrase is about what I recall the tone and message being in the design documentation). The designer neglected, however, that as the frequency decreases (the ferrite cores are intended for use at 1 MHz and above), the inductance vs number of turns curves bunch together and converge towards minimum inductance. The designer further neglected to measure the efficacy of the implemented filter. This would have taken about 10 minutes with a signal generator and oscilloscope. #notRocketScience

It's entirely possible that the ferrite core is saturating from the supply current. I don't have data to support this claim, but it seems likely. Either way, the supply filter doesn't appear to provide any meaningful attenuation of the ultrasonic output of the SMPS.

You can easily find a ready-made inductor that'll work in the supply filter and provide meaningful attenuation of the 50 kHz switching hash from the power supply. Designing a filter around such an inductor is well within the capabilities of the designer of the T2, but is a bit advanced for someone who's just getting into DIY. You need to choose the components (L and C) in an LC filter carefully to avoid peaking, as such peaking will increase both supply impedance and supply noise. In addition, these components will need to be chosen such that they provide meaningful attenuation of the 50 kHz switching frequency. The T2 circuit designer was clearly aware that the switching supply would introduce some switching hash on the output of the amp, and I know he is capable (or should be capable) of designing an LC filter, thus I found it very hard to contain my disappointment in the quality of the circuit design exhibited in the T2.

I don't buy the argument that "this is DIY, so you can always just change the circuit", in particular when this project is aimed at beginners. I expect the circuit designer to design the circuit to work well. If a supply filter is included to eliminate switching hash, it should provide meaningful attenuation at the switching frequency of the SMPS. This should be verified during the design stage (or at the very least verified in prototyping). So.... Yeah... I'm not impressed.

Tom
 
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Sep 13, 2019 at 12:32 PM Post #44 of 55
Mark did reply on this subject and as usual he is cryptic in his response, mainly because he is trying to get you to think and learn, thats a good thing....
I can think of other reasons why he tends to be cryptic in his responses, when faced with an obvious design oversight. But maybe that's just me... :) I will always encourage independent thought, but requiring beginners to think through the design of a supply filter is a tall order. It's not as simple as textbooks make you believe.

The curves and graphs and explanations in the catalog, may help you decide whether any ferrite bead designed for EMI suppression, might ever undergo "saturation" when subject to DC current flow {as in the second stage of the T2 power supply filter}. If saturation can occur, at what number of amp-turns does saturation become a problem for EMI suppression beads? Surely Laird customers would want to know, and surely Laird would provide this information.
When the core of an inductor saturates, the inductor basically turns into an air core inductor. So in case of the T2, you'll have, maybe, 100 nH of inductance. That won't provide any meaningful attenuation at 50 kHz, which is likely why those who have replaced the inductor with a piece of wire have found no difference (though, it doesn't appear they've measured the ultrasonic output to compare).

Ferrite cores are made by pressing or sintering together a bunch of ferromagnetic granules together to form the core. They're typically optimized for RF applications and are not intended for DC operation. To make a ferrite core suitable for DC current, you need to introduce an air gap (or at least non-ferromagnetic gap) in the core. This can be done by adding a non-ferromagnetic filler material to the ferrite powder. This will reduce the inductance you get per turn of wire in exchange for the ability to offer some inductance in the presence of a DC bias current.

As you've undoubtedly noticed, the Laird data sheet you link to is absent of DC current specs, including for the LFB095051 used in the T2. This indicates to me that the cores in the catalog, including the one used in the T2, are optimized for RF with minimal DC bias current.
Screen Shot 2019-09-13 at 10.15.56.png
Either way, the designer of the T2 could easily have measured the inductance with a DC bias applied. I would have expected this to have occurred during the prototyping stage of the T2.

Its also interesting that Wushuliu replaces it with a piece of wire and noticed no audible difference?
(sans LPS).
If it makes no difference, why include it? Why make the project more expensive than necessary? Sure, ferrites are cheap. But why? My expectation is that the parts on the circuit board are there to serve a function in the circuit - not to look pretty or to occupy space. Is this an unreasonable expectation? I'm not trying to be confrontational with this question. I'm just calibrating my expectations.

I think this goes back to subjective measurements that can be measured but their ultimate affect is somewhat in doubt, especially with our "human" ear transducers...
I'm not sure what you mean by "subjective measurements". Would you elaborate?

I agree that humans don't have to hear ultrasonic frequencies. That should be obvious from the definition of ultrasonic... :) However, ultrasonic signals from the amp will dissipate power in the headphones. In speaker amps, amps which produce ultrasonic output are commonly known as tweeter eaters. Some will have that concern with their headphones as well. I doubt the ultrasonic output of the T2 is much of a concern, but it doesn't look pretty and shouldn't be there. The T2 designer appears to agree with this statement as he included a supply filter to get rid of the ultrasonic output. He just didn't seem to measure to see if the filter worked. He could have performed such a measurement with any sound card running at a sampling frequency of 120 kHz or higher (so 192 kHz would work!).

The neat thing is folks are looking at this T2 project and doing things to cahnge and or improve it..this is indeed the spririt of DIY...
It would be even better if the designer had ironed out these things (supply filter, turn-on/off thump) prior to release. I don't think it's reasonable to rely on your builders and "the spirit of DIY" to address your design oversights. But maybe I'm being unreasonable in my expectations (see above).

Tom
 
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Sep 13, 2019 at 6:50 PM Post #45 of 55
With all that said...I still use the T2, and its working well here for me. I dont hear any noise, its dead silent to me...it makes me smile.

So whether you can measure something but cant really hear it...what does that tell me.

Its easy to get caught up in measurements and the like....

If you can measure it, great, if I cant hear what your measuring with my human ears, great as well..

Back to the music!

Alex
 

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