[RCBinTN]

Those were David's words, not mine.
He used a wide range of music genres and amps, in his HP reviews, which I highly respect (his list is on Page 1).

This was the first thread I read 100% on joining Head-Fi, because everything David wrote seemed so objective ... and I needed help!
Here is David's quote - from Page 1 ... he used the word "finicky" not "picky" ...

"AMP FINICKY: With regard to amp synergy, the HD800 has a reputation for being finicky. This means that it can sound amazing in one setup and harsh or lifeless in another setup. As a result, it can be quite the task when planning a setup around the HD800."

That was my task ... to achieve a setup around the HD800.
After several failures, I finally achieved success whilst spending a Lot less money on gear than did David (check out the price of his DAC equipment!).

BTW, I enjoy all music genres on my HD800 - from metal to classical. You see me on the Listening thread.
The HD800 are truly a universal headphone.

FWIW, YMMV, you know..

 

[kid vic]

I think using word picky, and anything that sound pleasant on it is just garbage reads as a partial perspective in how it's described (not objective). It can be also describe in other ways. I know people who speaks highly of HD800 are ones that listen to jazz and classical only. If you listen to those two genre only, harshiness of the headphone will not show. So, it's not a well rounded assessment.

Not really, classical will definitely highlight a headphones weakness and there are loads of Jazz songs or albums that are hot on the treble or alternatively really great live performance recordings. Thats like saying if you only listen to records every system sounds good.

 

[jmills8]

Not really, classical will definitely highlight a headphones weakness and there are loads of Jazz songs or albums that are hot on the treble or alternatively really great live performance recordings. Thats like saying if you only listen to records every system sounds good.

Which headphones did best with your Classical music test ? Would those headphones then do great with Metal ?

 

[kid vic]

Which headphones did best with your Classical music test ? Would those headphones then do great with Metal ?

I don't really listen to metal but I do like it, so take this with a grain of salt.

The headphones I thought do best with metal are the Mr. Speakers Ether Flow 1.1, I listened to Death From Above 1979- You're a Woman, I'm a Machine and Relentless Mutation by Archspire a while ago and though I found the bass a little lacking for my bass head self the speed and control more than made up for it. I demoed the LCD-X with some Rage against the machine about a month ago and loved it too.

If the Ether Flow's are out of your price range @Monsterzero swears by the AKG K240 sextetts for metal, an opinion I can second though I do think the EF1.1 is better. I also remember really liking the K340 with Queens of the stone age.

For Classical I preferred the HE-500, AKG 240 sextett and K7XX over the ether flow more or less in that order. YMMV.

Disclaimer is that I'm not the most knowledgeable about metal or classical music, I listen to more classical than metal but far less of both than Hip-hop, R'n'B and Jazz.

 

[Monsterzero]

If the Ether Flow's are out of your price range @Monsterzero swears by the AKG K240 sextetts for metal,

You rang?

Yeah I love the MP Sextett for metal. The EP Sextett is good too if you like the added thump. The LP Sextett is too bass light for my tastes. The problem with Sextetts are two fold.
Theyre discontinued,so buying used is a must,and theyre quite hard to drive. Theyre the only headphone that I own where I prefer solid state amping over tubes.
The mids are ultra aggressive,bringing the guitars right up against your head,and sound fantastic with most rock/metal genres. I cant comment on classical as its not one of my preferred genres.
I own headphones that cost 20 times what I paid for my Sextetts,yet I still listen to them often and enjoy the hell out of them.

I have a review and link to buying guide on my Youtube channel(link in signature)

 

[kid vic]

You rang?

Yeah I love the MP Sextett for metal. The EP Sextett is good too if you like the added thump. The LP Sextett is too bass light for my tastes. The problem with Sextetts are two fold.
Theyre discontinued,so buying used is a must,and theyre quite hard to drive. Theyre the only headphone that I own where I prefer solid state amping over tubes.
The mids are ultra aggressive,bringing the guitars right up against your head,and sound fantastic with most rock/metal genres. I cant comment on classical as its not one of my preferred genres.
I own headphones that cost 20 times what I paid for my Sextetts,yet I still listen to them often and enjoy the hell out of them.

I have a review and link to buying guide on my Youtube channel(link in signature)

Hahaha I'm glad you answered.

I'm slowly growing to love the sextett LP and EF1.1 light bass, but it is nice to have something with more bass in the stable. I can't wait to get my K400's recabled and added to the comparison.

 

[allhifi]

Look at my Sig, my gear is above average, I also use a FiiO X3 occasionally. It should be noted that of the 9 HFM cans I mention below, the 400i changed the least with better cable, pads, and ancillary - almost for sure since its the least revealing and lowest quality of the nine.

More than half the cans I've owned since 2015 are HFM: 400i, HE5-..LE, HE5se, HE-500, HEX V2 - and I haven't changed my amp or DAC since 2015 - the 400i is the least of the group. Also had lots of exposure to other HFM cans such as: the HE-6, Ananda, 560, and Sundara - the 400i is clearly the bottom of the barrel compared to all the others. Now I do like it better than the: Audeze LCD2-2C, Fostex FH500RP, MD-X00 but all 3 are fatally flawed the 400i wins by default.

BTW, HFM's of the pre HEK and HEX era ring and reverberate a lot. Part of it is lack of control of the driver after the signal, there is very little to stop it. The reverberation is worse in the HE-500 and HE-6 because of the two sided output, but when time is taken to modifiy them they reward the user with the best sound HFM had until about 6 years after their release.

The 660 is supposed to be more like the 600, then the 650. Haven't heard it. Don't generally like Senn's but the 600 is pretty amazing at the price. Trying to get a new pair of HFM HE5se's to sound better with mods and its slow going. They can't be modded as much as the 6 or 500, they don't sound like speakers as the others do, and the image is a bit of an issue vs some other HFM's. Big HFM fan, but they are far from perfect, and like most planars they have issues with ringing. And like many cans, they have issues with reverberations.

bw359: Now I see why you are so combative; Boston Bruins were embarrassed in game 7 -2019 Stanley Cup ! (just kidding ).

I must look at your ancillary equipment list (Sig -?).

Moving on, you constantly speak of "ringing" and "reverberations" yet I have no clue to what you are referring to ? Please explain.
Nowhere on a 'spec' sheet (or indeed subjective evaluations) of the 400 i makes reference to such colorations as you claim.

So please, provide a list of ancillary gear, your years of experience/expertise -and any 'measurements' that may such suggest such
ringing/ reverberation.

Cheers,

pj

 

[bagwell359]

bw359: Now I see why you are so combative; Boston Bruins were embarrassed in game 7 -2019 Stanley Cup ! (just kidding ).

I must look at your ancillary equipment list (Sig -?).

Moving on, you constantly speak of "ringing" and "reverberations" yet I have no clue to what you are referring to ? Please explain.
Nowhere on a 'spec' sheet (or indeed subjective evaluations) of the 400 i makes reference to such colorations as you claim.

So please, provide a list of ancillary gear, your years of experience/expertise -and any 'measurements' that may such suggest such
ringing/ reverberation.

Cheers,

pj

Started going to BSO when I was 8, father had a pair of Quad ESL 57's when I was 12, got my first rig at 15, built about 30 kits mostly for money over a 7 year period, first pair of Maggies bought 1979, 7 years selling high end gea (and cycling gear about as often as changing underwear), investor in high end shop for years, built and modified speakers and sub-woofers, amps starting in 1980; started my own efforts and business - designing and modifying listening rooms. Sold off analog rig in '15; focused on headphones since then.

I have a Ragnarok and a Gumby - well above average for the site, and certainly well above average for what people use on HFM 400* cans.

You must be unfamiliar with the interest and google - go ahead and try "highfiman" "ringing". Then try 400. Try "waterfall" as well.

If you know anything about the physical world, everything has resonances - that get excited by sound - unless the item in question is treated - and then its usually a mitigation, not a cancellation.

As for ortho dynamic drivers which I owned a large number of speakers (MG 1, MG 2, MG 3.3, MG20 (long term loan) and now headphones, the big claim to fame is the initial response to an increase in signal (rise time). Estats (ESL 57, KLH 9, ML Aerius, ML SL3, ML CLS IIz) and orthos respond very nicely - at first. Many of them continue to RING (that is move in a way that makes sound) for 5, 10, even 20 times longer then the initial signal. Go read some old reviews on Stereophile, TAS, etc. Headphones are no different. Anyone that believes that a cheap can made with many compromises doesn't fall into these issues is either fatally ego tied, or very unfamiliar with how these work in the real world.

 

[bagwell359]

30-minutes evaluation between HD-800 and HFM 400i's: Multiple headphone amps could be and were chosen -including the Sennheiser (silver, long chassis) amplifier.

It was the HD-800; is it $700, or $900. I don't recall (this was 2-years ago) but was far more expensive than HFM 400 (i's). The 800's were slow, prodding, veiled in comparison
to the 400 i's. It was no contest. And it was typical "Sennheiser" sound; bloaty, ill-defined -****ty. But indeed, it was one store; same headphone over the course of two weeks.
800's could very well have been 'off' (not working properly).

pj

Two years ago an HD800 for $700 was probably damaged. I'm not a particular fan of the 800, but bloated and veiled against a 3rd rate HFM can? Now if you said you had a HE-500 or HE-6 or HEK or HEX you liked more - I wouldn't argue with you, but the 400 is a starter can of probably the greatest maker of ortho dynamic headphones since day 1. Some might argue for Audeze (not me), or some of the newer/smaller outfits such as MrSpeaker, etc.. But my money is on HFM - and I'm telling you as someone that owns more of them than you have probably heard - the 400 is meh, so is the 400S, and the 400i is OK and so is the 4xx - but the HE-500 with mods and the HEX v2 (no mods) both reign far above the 400i.

 

[bagwell359]

@allhifi - No response yet? Let me help you out - a review with the terms "ringing" "resonance" and "entry level".

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/he400i/

 

[allhifi]

Accuracy and revealing the music is what is fun, the entire 400 line (400S, 400i, 4XX) are not accurate.


I've recognize very passionate can-fier's here -nice !

BUT, I do question some listener's interpretations regarding transparency, accuracy; the HFM 400 (i) is a remarkably neutral performer; frequency balance/response.
It's also impressively resolving/revealing, detailed and decently 'layered'. With the considerable drop in HFM (400i's) pricing, I can foresee use with lesser quality
ancillaries than what it deserves/is capable of revealing. ( The HFM 400S, on the other hand, are far too peaky/bright. The (i's) are far more 'polished' -and accurate.)

When I hear a listener state (the 400i's) has too much "ringing" and "reverberation", it suggests to me the ancillary gear/source is FAR from ideal/clean, or resolving
-or even musical for that matter.
Ringing/Reverberation can very easily be reproduced when the 400i's (or any other resolving transducer) are connected to subpar electronics/source; reproducing
the signal received. And with such a capable/resolving headphone, it will be very easy to pick out substandard amplification/source/cables etc.

And before I continue further, I certainly must reaffirm the Sennheiser models numbers I spoke to earlier. (I'm quite sure I have photo's of the set-up -somewhere)

pj
( P.S> Is the newer 600-series (Senn) the 660's ? )

Gents: My terrible mistake; the Sennheiser I referred to as the HD-800 were in fact HD-700's ($1,299. CAD)

So to correct: HFM 400i's blow away the twice/thrice priced HD-700's.

pj

 

[allhifi]

Two years ago an HD800 for $700 was probably damaged. I'm not a particular fan of the 800, but bloated and veiled against a 3rd rate HFM can? Now if you said you had a HE-500 or HE-6 or HEK or HEX you liked more - I wouldn't argue with you, but the 400 is a starter can of probably the greatest maker of ortho dynamic headphones since day 1. Some might argue for Audeze (not me), or some of the newer/smaller outfits such as MrSpeaker, etc.. But my money is on HFM - and I'm telling you as someone that owns more of them than you have probably heard - the 400 is meh, so is the 400S, and the 400i is OK and so is the 4xx - but the HE-500 with mods and the HEX v2 (no mods) both reign far above the 400i.

Correction: The Senn's (I referred to as 800's) were in fact HD-700's.

"A third-rate can" ? (lol)

I recently (by chance) flipped through a 2012 TAS Editor's Choice magazine; HiFiman HE-5LE,, HE-500, HE-6 (Flagship then) -all received 'glowing' (excellent) reviews.

Since then (and of course later), there have been many incidences/comparisons between the HFM 400i and many of those highly regarded headphones. In fact, it
would NOT be unusual for listener's to prefer the 400i's -and even within the pages of this (fine) blog !

The notion of the HFM 400i as anything but a premium, high-resolution transducer is nothing short of disingenuous.

pj
(I suppose it can (and does) really irk some that the 'currently ' priced Hifiman 400i at $299. (USD) competes/beats
competitor's $1K + cans rather easily. Yet, there you have it ! )

 

[RCBinTN]

Yeah, pj, we get it. You like the 400i.

I doubt anyone here would defend the HD700.
I heard them once, and that was enough. They sound mushy.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Gents: My terrible mistake; the Sennheiser I referred to as the HD-800 were in fact HD-700's ($1,299. CAD)

So to correct: HFM 400i's blow away the twice/thrice priced HD-700's.

pj

This explains a lot. The 700 is a pretty awful headphone.

 

[Roderick]

HE400i is great. However ironically because of Hifiman itself it is not that good value. One can score an used HE400 for $100 and new HE-4XX is only $150. Say new HE400i can be had for $199 but adorama HE560 were only $250. HE560 is a significant upgrade over HE400i. Sundara has been permanently discounted and at $300 it is ab upgrade over HE560.

So you can get about the same sound for less or pay a bit more for an upgrade. And to say HE400i can beat headphones $1000 and up... Sure, it is better than HD700 or ultrasone signature pro. But those are notoriously bad headphones. Pin it against any decent $1000 headphone and you would feel different.