[bagwell359]

Correction: The Senn's (I referred to as 800's) were in fact HD-700's.

That's not a good can.

"A third-rate can" ? (lol)

In terms of cost of materials, measurements, and average review it's clearly a lower end also ran from an outfit that produces from good to sublime cans.

I recently (by chance) flipped through a 2012 TAS Editor's Choice magazine; HiFiman HE-5LE,, HE-500, HE-6 (Flagship then) -all received 'glowing' (excellent) reviews.

The 400/400S/400i are all lesser than those, and I guess you don't actually read what I write - because the HE-6 and HE-500 are cans I've written about re: the 400i, and said that they routinely easily outclass any 400. A HE-500 can be bought used for about $350, modified to a total cost of about $475 and it will crush every 400* ever made on all music you could choose.

Since then (and of course later), there have been many incidences/comparisons between the HFM 400i and many of those highly regarded headphones. In fact, it
would NOT be unusual for listener's to prefer the 400i's -and even within the pages of this (fine) blog !

There are a few souls that prefer the 400 over the HE-6 or HE-500, but on this site it's pretty clear what the pecking order is. HE-6 > HE-500 > HE-400.

The notion of the HFM 400i as anything but a premium, high-resolution transducer is nothing short of disingenuous.

You never specified a budget. The HE-6, HE-500, HEX v2, Arya, Susavera, MD XX, MrSpeakers E2, Audeze LCD-3, Audeze LCD-4, Voce, Stax 007, Stax 009, Sundara, Ananda, HE5SE, HE6SE, HE5LE off the top of my head are all cans I've heard in the past 8 months that destroy the 400*.

It's THE lowest priced and lowest quality can that HFM currently makes and sells in the market. It's ridiculous to label it as a premium product.

(I suppose it can (and does) really irk some that the 'currently ' priced Hifiman 400i at $299. (USD) competes/beats
competitor's $1K + cans rather easily. Yet, there you have it ! )

You're a scream - you demand I produce bona fides about my experience - which almost certainly tops yours, and explain where I get terms such as "ringing" and "reverberation" from - and make no acknowledgement. You are like that person the saying warns about "don't trust the man of only one book". You are a man of one can because it suits your budget/experience and hope to cement that in your mind by attacking everything/one else that deviates.

 

[Monsterzero]

Correction: The Senn's (I referred to as 800's) were in fact HD-700's.

"A third-rate can" ? (lol)

I recently (by chance) flipped through a 2012 TAS Editor's Choice magazine; HiFiman HE-5LE,, HE-500, HE-6 (Flagship then) -all received 'glowing' (excellent) reviews.

Since then (and of course later), there have been many incidences/comparisons between the HFM 400i and many of those highly regarded headphones. In fact, it
would NOT be unusual for listener's to prefer the 400i's -and even within the pages of this (fine) blog !

The notion of the HFM 400i as anything but a premium, high-resolution transducer is nothing short of disingenuous.

pj
(I suppose it can (and does) really irk some that the 'currently ' priced Hifiman 400i at $299. (USD) competes/beats
competitor's $1K + cans rather easily. Yet, there you have it ! )

Listen man,if you have found audio nirvana with the 400i,congrats! Youve beaten the game,and saved yourself a ton of cash.
Personally,I like the sound of many of the HiFiMan offerings,but not all. The main issue I have with their headphones is the QC,and some dodgy pricings,as well as a history of rapid fire revisions of previously released,hi-end headphones.

Its also important to note that many hi dollar headphones scale with hi-end gear. I could totally see where if one plugged a ZMF Auteur or HD800,for example, into an iPhone and preferred the sound of the 400i. Yup,I get it.
Now try the same headphones on higher end sources,files and amps...IMHO,thats a totally different story.

 

[allhifi]

Yeah, pj, we get it. You like the 400i.

I doubt anyone here would defend the HD700.
I heard them once, and that was enough. They sound mushy.

Lol: (Yeah, pj, we get it. You like the 400i.)

Guys, a genuinely passionate audiophile the past forty years -many of those years in the hi-fi industry itself-
one has ample opportunity to see/hear many-a-thing.

Great hi-fi is a wonderful experience, yet nowhere is there a definite 'line' (price-point) that defines the better stuff.
I'm particularly sensitive and offended by high-priced crap equaled/bettered by more sensibly priced items.

Soooo, returning from a near 20-year ''headphone' absence a few years back, the old "Ruler's' were called upon :
Sennheiser, Beyer, AKG, etc., and some casual listening ensued. Once I dropped the 400S Hifiman (a name I knew
nothing of/about) I immediately noted it's far superior transparency to the stores Senn's (HD-600/650, 700'S), some
Grado models and a couple other names I forgot.
Yet clearly the HFM 400S's were annoyingly "peaky'" -far too tilted up/top end. But the name-brand was noted.
Within one year my yearly hi-fi trade show attendance turned into some long-ish headphone listening session -
not at all originally intended/planned.

Many a big-name/dollar model-brand was there, and set-up/rigged to some pricey ancillaries. Brands included:
Senn's, Beyer, AKG, Grado, Focal, Sony, Hifiman, Shure, (Stax?) And so some listening commenced. It was at this
show two-years ago that I decided (in no uncertain terms) on the excellent 400i's -no less at a previously unheard
of price. The entire slew of HFM's were on display for listening as well. Immensely disappointing were the Focal
'U-poopia's' ($5K) and Sony's hot-shot $2K turd.

In case things remain unclear (lol): The Hifiman 400i is a great headphone at an amazing price.

pj
( I'll be the first on this forum to celebrate something that's considerably superior -regardless
of price.)

 

[bagwell359]

Lol: (Yeah, pj, we get it. You like the 400i.)

Guys, a genuinely passionate audiophile the past forty years -many of those years in the hi-fi industry itself-
one has ample opportunity to see/hear many-a-thing.

Great hi-fi is a wonderful experience, yet nowhere is there a definite 'line' (price-point) that defines the better stuff.
I'm particularly sensitive and offended by high-priced crap equaled/bettered by more sensibly priced items.

Soooo, returning from a near 20-year ''headphone' absence a few years back, the old "Ruler's' were called upon :
Sennheiser, Beyer, AKG, etc., and some casual listening ensued. Once I dropped the 400S Hifiman (a name I knew
nothing of/about) I immediately noted it's far superior transparency to the stores Senn's (HD-600/650, 700'S), some
Grado models and a couple other names I forgot.
Yet clearly the HFM 400S's were annoyingly "peaky'" -far too tilted up/top end. But the name-brand was noted.
Within one year my yearly hi-fi trade show attendance turned into some long-ish headphone listening session -
not at all originally intended/planned.

Many a big-name/dollar model-brand was there, and set-up/rigged to some pricey ancillaries. Brands included:
Senn's, Beyer, AKG, Grado, Focal, Sony, Hifiman, Shure, (Stax?) And so some listening commenced. It was at this
show two-years ago that I decided (in no uncertain terms) on the excellent 400i's -no less at a previously unheard
of price. The entire slew of HFM's were on display for listening as well. Immensely disappointing were the Focal
'U-poopia's' ($5K) and Sony's hot-shot $2K turd.

In case things remain unclear (lol): The Hifiman 400i is a great headphone at an amazing price.

pj
( I'll be the first on this forum to celebrate something that's considerably superior -regardless
of price.)

400i is quite good at a very nice price. Many models that cost more are not better. I can name a lot of them.

But being better or at least different than many cans doesn't make them the best. A formidable array of current and past Highfiman cans are considerably better than the 400*.

You speak of transparency? What's your take on Stax 007, 009, and MrSpeakers Voce? Or MrSpekers E2, HFM Arya, HEKse

What part of the industry did you work in?

 

[allhifi]

400i is quite good at a very nice price. Many models that cost more are not better. I can name a lot of them.

But being better or at least different than many cans doesn't make them the best. A formidable array of current and past Highfiman cans are considerably better than the 400*.

You speak of transparency? What's your take on Stax 007, 009, and MrSpeakers Voce? Or MrSpekers E2, HFM Arya, HEKse

What part of the industry did you work in?

Hey bw359: Interesting you should mention the Stax 007/009, for I was wondering whether either of those were present/showing
at the 'Show' I attended, that year. I do not recall the model (I should have), but do recall a brilliant (expensive) Stax 'Can' that truly
represented a step-up (or two/three -lol) from conventional, albeit good "standard" fare -such as 400i's.

I have no doubt there are several others (headphones) that are clearly, unambiguously superior -at quite the investment.

However, when you state: "... A formidable array of current and past Highfiman cans are considerably better than the 400*,
that's completely bunk; a "Formidable" array past/present HFM betters the 400i ! (?) Wrong. Definitely there may be/are
some but by no means clearly superior.-and definitely not worth the extra expense for the believed "improvements" that
can be rather easily eked out of any transducer with sensible ancillary selection.

My industry experience encompassed Sales, Manufacturing and Distributing -many companies that remain I remain in regular
contact. Beyond industry "associations", I feel one's (a listeners) inherent passion/interest in hi-fi to be a far more telling sign of
expertise/hi-fi understanding than industry associations/positions. Assuming one has the necessary skill-set/understanding of
high performance/resolution audio.

With that said, by no means have I (recently) been involved in headphones -such as in the 80-'s-90's when Sennheiser made the
wonderful HD-560, 560-'Ovation' -I hope I have the correct model number? (lol). Was there a HD-580, 580 Precision? Maybe that
was the model number.

In any case, authentic experience/eye for sound teaches us a great deal about product performance -and value !

pj

 

[AudioThief]

pj, have you heard higher end headphones, like TOTL electrostats, dynamics and planars? It is not a contest against the 400i.

 

[allhifi]

pj, have you heard higher end headphones, like TOTL electrostats, dynamics and planars? It is not a contest against the 400i.

Hi AT: Unfortunately, no, I have not had the opportunity.

pj
(P.S. No doubt several superior headphones exist -including some from the past!. )

 

[bagwell359]

However, when you state: "... A formidable array of current and past Highfiman cans are considerably better than the 400*,
that's completely bunk; a "Formidable" array past/present HFM betters the 400i ! (?) Wrong. Definitely there may be/are
some but by no means clearly superior.-and definitely not worth the extra expense for the believed "improvements" that
can be rather easily eked out of any transducer with sensible ancillary selection.

Not at all bunk according to listeners here and reviewers all over the map. Or look at the origination of this thread. It's made quite clear that the 400i is not a flagship, it's included by request. The HE-500 which received a much higher grade (and costs more) then the 400 was called "mid tier". The HE-6 was the flagship at HFM at the time, making the 400 3rd of 3.

The HE-6, HE-500, HE5-LE, HEX v2 - of no longer produced cans - all very much superior. I own them all BTW (not the HE-6). Did own the 400i and have the MD 4xx which is similar.

Current HFM cans that are better: HEK V2, HEKse, Arya, Ananada, Sundara, HE5se - the weakest of that group is the HE5se which I own, and it's notably better than the 400i. Haven't heard the MD xx but I assume its clearly better as well.

My industry experience encompassed Sales, Manufacturing and Distributing -many companies that remain I remain in regular
contact. Beyond industry "associations", I feel one's (a listeners) inherent passion/interest in hi-fi to be a far more telling sign of
expertise/hi-fi understanding than industry associations/positions. Assuming one has the necessary skill-set/understanding of
high performance/resolution audio.

I've sold and manufactured within the industry. No dist, unless its drive buyers equipment home and set them up (grew that into separate business as time passed - with ASC traps, rebuilt rooms, etc.)

I sold ARC, Magnepan, ML, Threshold, Pass, DCM, Cizek, Conrad Johnson, Dahlquist, ProAc, Onkyo, Hales, Rogers, Apogee, etc. I've built subs from scratch, modified every speaker I've owned - but the Verity Parsifal usually with ribbon tweeters, and new caps and new crossover values.

I have a much lower budget than I used to have, but I know high end reproduction when I hear it - and the 400i isn't it. It's C+/B- sound with an A- value mark. That's cute and nice, but, my HE-500's chew up and spit them out on every cut of music I know or have. It's the simple truth. Same for the HE-6 and HEX v2 and Arya and HEKse - moreso in some cases. And back to the original point - the HD-600 reproduces piano and classical at a much higher level than the 400i - which is better for rock/pop.

the 400i is like the NAD 3020, and others - nice bang for buck, lots of gear available that cost more and was better.

 

[allhifi]

Not at all bunk according to listeners here and reviewers all over the map.

The HE-6, HE-500, HE5-LE, HEX v2 - of no longer produced cans - all very much superior. I own them all BTW. Did own the 400i and have the MD 4xx which is similar.

Current HFM cans that are better: HEK V2, HEKse, Arya, Ananada, Sundara, HE5se - the weakest of that group is the HE5se which I own, and it's notably better than the 400i. Haven't heard the MD xx but I assume its clearly better as well.



I've sold and manufactured within the industry. No dist, unless its drive buyers equipment home and set them up (grew that into separate business as time passed - with ASC traps, rebuilt rooms, etc.)

I sold ARC, Magnepan, ML, Threshold, Pass, DCM, Cizek, Conrad Johnson, Dahlquist, ProAc, Onkyo, Hales, Rogers, Apogee, etc. I've built subs from scratch, modified every speaker I've owned - but the Verity Parsifal usually with ribbon tweeters, and new caps and new crossover values.

I have a much lower budget than I used to have, but I know high end reproduction when I hear it - and the 400i isn't it. It's C+/B- sound with an A- value mark. That's cute and nice, but, my HE-500's chew up and spit them out on every cut of music I know or have. It's the simple truth. Same for the HE-6 and HEX v2 and Arya and HEKse - moreso in some cases. And back to the original point - the HD-600 reproduces piano and classical at a much higher level than the 400i - which is better for rock/pop.

the 400i is like the NAD 3020, and others - nice bang for buck, lots of gear available that cost more and was better.

Lol. Good to know ! (400i's = NAD '3020' -that 80's Integrated ? (Too funny - I sold quite a few of those btw.)

What was the purpose of throwing out name brands (in your previous reply?) I can do the same -and take it a
few steps further if the intention was to highlight "qualifications". But that's not what this particular post
concern -so would be wasted energy.

Funny thing about you 'owning' so many products: Why ?

When/if I find something impressive -it's a keeper ! (A rarity, I might add.) But worth retaining/preserving.

As a precursor to streamlining this dialogue, you mentioned ASC 'Tube Taps' -for what reason ?

Additionally,, as a sign-off (or close to it), perhaps you can enlighten readers about your thoughts on AC power
concerns; how it may impact performance -and how to correct/improve. Great insights can be drawn here.

Oh, and your thoughts on premium (quality) cabling -and component/audio stands-racks (as it may relate
to SQ).

Cheers,

pj

 

[bagwell359]

Funny thing about you 'owning' so many products: Why ?

Now or before? I own several that I don't listen too much, but resale is usually stronger in the Fall. Probably end up with 3 or 4 cans by 2020.

I owned a lot of gear in the old days (or borrowed), why not when you are spending 40, 50, 60% of retail and can flip them for a profit.

When/if I find something impressive -it's a keeper ! (A rarity, I might add.) But worth retaining/preserving.

I've had a lot of gear over 10 years (some over 20) - Souther tone arm, FR 64, Oracle Delphi II, VPI Mk IV, Threshold Stasis 3, ARC SP 15, Pass X-150, Adcom GFP-750, Pass P, Triangle Celius 202, ProAc Tablette - but I sold my 3200 sq ft home in '16 with the perfect 26' x 20' x 14->11' sloped ceiling. My speaker stuff doesn't sound too good in a 14' x 12' room with wood floor - so hence the move to headphones.

As a precursor to streamlining this dialogue, you mentioned ASC 'Tube Taps' -for what reason

Probably my #1 claim to fame was improving listening rooms, which those traps are often included - so I mentioned them. Actually specified rooms in new built homes - and they were great.

Additionally,, as a sign-off (or close to it), perhaps you can enlighten readers about your thoughts on AC power
concerns; how it may impact performance -and how to correct/improve. Great insights can be drawn here.

I believe both my DAC and CD player do not put out very good sound once they go under 116 VAC. Lately it's been down to 112. I've thought of a Furman, but first I'm going to increase the power supply cap size and quality and throw another cap across the main cap for high freq filtering.

Oh, and your thoughts on premium (quality) cabling -and component/audio stands-racks (as it may relate
to SQ).

I stick to XLR primarily and find it's impossible or very difficult to find differences in cabeling. RCA - depending on how 'dirty' the env, the length and the amp and speakers you can get more variation there. Did a lof of speaker cable listening in the '95-'02 range. My fav was 2 gauge computer chassis wiring. Pulled that out over and over in ABX testing. I think absolute polarity was more interesting. Easy to do on my ARC SP15 - miss that feature.

Recently I had two coax cables for my DAC, meh either way. a kindly soul here (oops forgot name) sent me cooper coax and SPC coax (Calrad - no longer made). The Calrad kills the other 3 cooper - AB tests with aid of the wife prove it wasn't "silver" bias.

Stands/racks? Heavy metal basically. But turntables shouldn't be in the room no matter what - I had closets and adjacent rooms. Wall mounts are better than floor. You could have a $10k metal shot filled stand with a TT on a wood floor and it would suck compared to leaving the room with a different floor (pref concrete). Oh yes, dust covers suck, get those the heck off during play.

I think you know some stuff, why not try some higher priced HFM products - Arya springs to mind - or for not much more Sundara or HE5se. Now none of the 3 has the big midbass bulge of the 400i, which you might enjoy - but they are all truer to the music.

 

[allhifi]

Now or before? I own several that I don't listen too much, but resale is usually stronger in the Fall. Probably end up with 3 or 4 cans by 2020.

I owned a lot of gear in the old days (or borrowed), why not when you are spending 40, 50, 60% of retail and can flip them for a profit.



I've had a lot of gear over 10 years (some over 20) - Souther tone arm, FR 64, Oracle Delphi II, VPI Mk IV, Threshold Stasis 3, ARC SP 15, Pass X-150, Adcom GFP-750, Pass P, Triangle Celius 202, ProAc Tablette - but I sold my 3200 sq ft home in '16 with the perfect 26' x 20' x 14->11' sloped ceiling. My speaker stuff doesn't sound too good in a 14' x 12' room with wood floor - so hence the move to headphones.

Probably my #1 claim to fame was improving listening rooms, which those traps are often included - so I mentioned them. Actually specified rooms in new built homes - and they were great.



I believe both my DAC and CD player do not put out very good sound once they go under 116 VAC. Lately it's been down to 112. I've thought of a Furman, but first I'm going to increase the power supply cap size and quality and throw another cap across the main cap for high freq filtering.



I stick to XLR primarily and find it's impossible or very difficult to find differences in cabeling. RCA - depending on how 'dirty' the env, the length and the amp and speakers you can get more variation there. Did a lof of speaker cable listening in the '95-'02 range. My fav was 2 gauge computer chassis wiring. Pulled that out over and over in ABX testing. I think absolute polarity was more interesting. Easy to do on my ARC SP15 - miss that feature.

Recently I had two coax cables for my DAC, meh either way. a kindly soul here (oops forgot name) sent me cooper coax and SPC coax (Calrad - no longer made). The Calrad kills the other 3 cooper - AB tests with aid of the wife prove it wasn't "silver" bias.

Stands/racks? Heavy metal basically. But turntables shouldn't be in the room no matter what - I had closets and adjacent rooms. Wall mounts are better than floor. You could have a $10k metal shot filled stand with a TT on a wood floor and it would suck compared to leaving the room with a different floor (pref concrete). Oh yes, dust covers suck, get those the heck off during play.

I think you know some stuff, why not try some higher priced HFM products - Arya springs to mind - or for not much more Sundara or HE5se. Now none of the 3 has the big midbass bulge of the 400i, which you might enjoy - but they are all truer to the music.

Thanks for the detailed reply; much can be gleaned from such knowledge/disclosure.

Thank you for sharing.

The midrange "bulge" you experienced with the 400i I assure you, was not
from the 'can' itself -some other factor was responsible:

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/t...fiman-ananda/353/670?usage=5003&threshold=0.1

As you can see, the 400i's frequency response is impressively 'linear' (accurate),
not in the least "bloated" as you claim. Interestingly, the link above compares 400i
to HFM Ananda -although any reviewed/tested headphone can be compared side-
by-side.

Finally (and again just earlier this morning) leafing through Dec, 2014 Stereophile/
'Sam's Space' on the Hifiman 400i:

" ..The sound matters most, and it's similar to that of Stax electrostatic headphones
...Crisp, clean, clear and lightening fast, as music is in real life"

" ...Indeed, sound is seamless top-to-bottom."

" ...Sure, more expensive planar magnetics can deliver ore atmosphere, more air, more refined
treble (Audeze LCD-X, HFM pricier models)

"... But I think there's an excellent case for stopping here, at $499. ... Planar/Magnetic headphones
sound spectacular, and the more costly ones don't sound that much more spectacular than these."

I COULDN'T have said it better myself !!

pj

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Thanks for the detailed reply; much can be gleaned from such knowledge/disclosure.

Thank you for sharing.

The midrange "bulge" you experienced with the 400i I assure you, was not
from the 'can' itself -some other factor was responsible:

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/t...fiman-ananda/353/670?usage=5003&threshold=0.1

As you can see, the 400i's frequency response is impressively 'linear' (accurate),
not in the least "bloated" as you claim. Interestingly, the link above compares 400i
to HFM Ananda -although any reviewed/tested headphone can be compared side-
by-side.

Finally (and again just earlier this morning) leafing through Dec, 2014 Stereophile/
'Sam's Space' on the Hifiman 400i:

" ..The sound matters most, and it's similar to that of Stax electrostatic headphones
...Crisp, clean, clear and lightening fast, as music is in real life"

" ...Indeed, sound is seamless top-to-bottom."

" ...Sure, more expensive planar magnetics can deliver ore atmosphere, more air, more refined
treble (Audeze LCD-X, HFM pricier models)

"... But I think there's an excellent case for stopping here, at $499. ... Planar/Magnetic headphones
sound spectacular, and the more costly ones don't sound that much more spectacular than these."

I COULDN'T have said it better myself !!

pj

The main problem with the lower end of Hifiman, outside of the less refined sound, is the small, round earpads. For me, they’re basically on ear because they always touch.

I’d recommend anyone with larger ears to look at the Ananda, HEX, Arya, and HEK for the comfort, alone. And as a bonus, they’re also going to sound better and have better resolution.

 

[allhifi]

The main problem with the lower end of Hifiman, outside of the less refined sound, is the small, round earpads. For me, they’re basically on ear because they always touch.

I’d recommend anyone with larger ears to look at the Ananda, HEX, Arya, and HEK for the comfort, alone. And as a bonus, they’re also going to sound better and have better resolution.

Now, it's a matter of: " ...The main problem with the lower end of Hifiman, outside of the less refined sound, is the small, round earpads. For me, they’re basically on ear because they always touch. "

We have dozens of professional reviewer's, keen listener's, my own observations and causal listener's all admiring the HFM 400i excellent resolution/refinement, yet some feel that's not good/or accurate enough ?

Listen up younger listener's; end your search with the 400i's and instead improve source, cabling and power delivery.

A great headphone at a great price. Period.

pj

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Now, it's a matter of: " ...The main problem with the lower end of Hifiman, outside of the less refined sound, is the small, round earpads. For me, they’re basically on ear because they always touch. "

We have dozens of professional reviewer's, keen listener's, my own observations and causal listener's all admiring the HFM 400i excellent resolution/refinement, yet some feel that's not good/or accurate enough ?

Listen up younger listener's; end your search with the 400i's and instead improve source, cabling and power delivery.

A great headphone at a great price. Period.

pj

Who are you calling young? I’m in my 40’s and have been listening to high end audio for decades. I’m glad you love the 400i. To me, it’s entry level. There are very few Hifiman models I wouldn’t take over it, and I’ve owned most of them.

We get it. You love them. That’s your opinion. Other people get their opinion as well. They’re nowhere near TOTL status. To my ears, not even close.

 

[wickyfrog]

I sure hope no-one is paying $499 for the HE-400i. Brand new on Amazon at $188.

I got mine there for $177, and love them. HUGE bang-for-the-buck. Now have a lightly-used pair of HE-X V2 on the way, but the 400i will always be my favorite "budget-buddy".