It isn't the most elegant solution but I borrowed a sound meter from a coworker and volume matched at a 1khz test tone. I got it close enough to where I couldn't distinguish the difference volume-wise. Instrument separation was noticeably better and less congested with balanced output and balanced dac module
Sorry for the questions - but I'm naturally suspicious of the claim that instrument separation is better (I explained why in a previous post).
The FCC minimum channel separation/crosstalk spec for FM Stereo used to be 29.7dB...yes, that's right, 29.7. It had to do with how the signal was generated and handled, but 30 - 40dB wasn't hard to achieve, and 50dB wasn't uncommon.
The bulk of what is perceived as stereo separation happens above 20dB with decreasing detectable improvements above 30dB or so. It's almost impossible to detect separation improvements above 40dB. Localization of a phantom image depends less on channel separation and much more on relative intensity and inter-aural time delay of the sound, and human hearing response at different angles.
So....long answer...separation above 40dB doesn't improve sound quality, below 40dB it slowly degrades, the final separation is equal to the device with the least separation in the system. Once degraded by a device, no device following it can restore separation.
Schiit don't publish specs for SNR or crosstalk differences between balanced and SE, but we know they are very good with their designs, so both will be beyond the audible range (as far as separation differences go.
Which leads to:
- volume matching was not done accurate enough
- the testing was not blind
I have to take you at your word - and if thats your experience, then I can't say its not true. But I remain naturally sceptical that everything was controlled properly.
This is purely in terms of the Jotunheim because it's the only balanced amp I've heard, but I definitely prefer balanced over single ended for this amp. It's balanced output sounds noticeably better
Sorry for the questions - but I'm naturally suspicious of the claim that instrument separation is better (I explained why in a previous post).
Schiit don't publish specs for SNR or crosstalk differences between balanced and SE, but we know they are very good with their designs, so both will be beyond the audible range (as far as separation differences go.
Which leads to:
- volume matching was not done accurate enough
- the testing was not blind
I have to take you at your word - and if thats your experience, then I can't say its not true. But I remain naturally sceptical that everything was controlled properly.
If it makes you feel better we also deliberately tested, in a separate run, single ended at a noticeably higher volume and did the blind test again. Same result. Balanced output with balanced dac module, at least on the Jotunheim, has better instrument separation than single ended on the same amp. Regardless of whether or not you think balanced makes a good or bad difference (it objectively makes a difference for better or worse) it still improved the separation, albeit by a very small amount.
I've been through both. One does not sound better than the other imo. The only thing I thought that balanced did was sorta ruin the center image focus. But who knows. Could be placebo, or the trees I had in my possession at the time. LOL
There's your problem - we can reliably tell apart differences in volume of up to +/- 0.5 dB (ie people can tell there is a difference). You actually aren't volume matched unless you do it properly - at least to 0.1-0.2 dB.
Suggest repeat and do it again (if you really want to know for sure). if you are perfectly happy balanced though, thats up to you. The second thing that becomes really interesting is making sure we are listening for the same thing both times (balanced and SE). If you have the time, this video has some really good insights into how our brain works (with audio). All these guys are experts int heir field.
There's your problem - we can reliably tell apart differences in volume of up to +/- 0.5 dB (ie people can tell there is a difference). You actually aren't volume matched unless you do it properly - at least to 0.1-0.2 dB.
Suggest repeat and do it again (if you really want to know for sure). if you are perfectly happy balanced though, thats up to you. The second thing that becomes really interesting is making sure we are listening for the same thing both times (balanced and SE). If you have the time, this video has some really good insights into how our brain works (with audio). All these guys are experts int heir field.
I understand the idea of things sounding better at a louder volume, but I don't believe such a specific change in sound (be it instrument separation or otherwise) would be a figment of louder volume. Hence the test where we had the SE portion louder than balanced and got the same blind result, which shows the volume is not the issue. Regardless of volume, balanced for the Jot sounds better to me on both 650 and LCD2, which means for my exact gear, it provides a benefit. I'm a very scientific person but I don't believe that balanced provides zero benefit over SE.
When I had 3 other people blind testing this, and none of them knew what methods I was using, nor did they know what I was expecting, and they all had the same opinion, then something about the blanket statement that balanced offers no improvement is wrong. They never knew I was deliberately making SE louder to try to trick them into preferring the louder option, and they still said the slightly quieter sounded better. Im sorry my findings dont match up to your beliefs but balanced has a different sound than SE in many cases, and in this case the gear involved happens to make the instrument separation better when using balanced. I can accept the statement that MOST balanced architectures don't offer benefit, but unless they tested every single balanced amplifier which also has single ended outputs, then I doubt their claim applies to all know pieces of gear
May be the balanced dac has a bit more to do with that than balanced versus single ended on another amp and dac combo but not sure how Schiit implements the balanced to single ended portion of the dac on the Jot that might make a difference. I think that balanced on the Liquid Carbon could be a bit more dynamic but it is really hard to say as you have to stop and readjust everything and don’t know if you got the volume just right because if you have to take measurements again that just blows the whole test. I think you would actually have to have two identical systems setup and switch the headphone outs to really be able to tell as if you can not switch between the two at once during a listening session your brain starts to fill in for you. My wife who is a Speech Pathologist said there was a study by Bell or someone about telephone service and they realized you only needed like 60% or so of the message to come thru to get what was being said as your brain was thinking of the next word in the sentence and before you realized it wasn’t said and your brain filled it in. Your brain can also trick you is the theme hear. There was also this Poster at a Tommy Johns store that I read and was thinking ok what does this mean but after I looked at it again it had about 30% or so of the letters missing but I read it just fine the first time without noticing the letters were missing. So I guess my point is we could be fouling are selfs on something’s are should I say are dastardly brains ; )
Good way to put it. I think it's fine to have balanced outputs for extra power perhaps, but I'll never understand paying hundreds of extra dollars just for 4-pin.
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