[Grimbles]

Hi all,

I will post in a separate thread for some advice re/my proposed new set up. For now, I pose a question which I suspect has been asked before, but to which I do not know the answer. In short, what are the pros and cons of balanced and unbalanced outputs for headphones?

Many thanks,

Simon

 

[nordkapp]

Unbalanced. Read this.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/audio-myth-balanced-headphone-outputs-are-better

 

[Grimbles]

Thanks nordkapp, a thorough response, well understood!

 

[nordkapp]

Anytime.

 

[Brooko]

This might also help - it was in response to some comments from others about balanced being better on portables to single-ended. I disagree in virtually all cases, unless of course the balanced output supplies more voltage and power, and you're using high impedance cans which require that extra power. Anyway - here was my response ......

To balance the book on balanced:

From a discussion I had with someone regarding the X7ii's balanced module:


The specs will actually tell you more than your hearing will. Take the X7ii and its new balanced module.

It'll put 17mW into a 300 ohm load SE but 63 mW into the same load balanced. The voltage is also up. So if you're driving a load which requires a lot of voltage and is reasonably high impedance (eg like an HD650) there will be benefits. Not in the architecture, but in the power.

Look at the same load into an IEM though - say around 16 ohm. SE is 200 mW and balanced is 380 mW. Balanced must be better right? Not really. Balanced will chew the battery quicker, and both outputs would drive practically any IEM into the regions of deafening you. And its the same for the 32ohm load. Both are essentially over-kill.

Now lets look at the real differences - those bits that people make claims on. Remember how balanced is always cleaner, darker, more spacious, wider sound-stage ....... Lets look at cleaner first. SNR on SE is 116 dB and on balanced is 119 dB. Both are beyond what we can hear - so no difference. Both have THD measurements at 0.003% = beyond our hearing. You'll get a magnitude more distortion from your earphones. Now the important one - crosstalk (channel separation). SE is 73 dB and balanced is 97 dB. That must make a big difference - right?

I'm going to quote something bookmarked a long time ago:

The FCC minimum channel separation/crosstalk spec for FM Stereo used to be 29.7dB...yes, that's right, 29.7. It had to do with how the signal was generated and handled, but 30 - 40dB wasn't hard to achieve, and 50dB wasn't uncommon.

The bulk of what is perceived as stereo separation happens above 20dB with decreasing detectable improvements above 30dB or so. It's almost impossible to detect separation improvements above 40dB. Localization of a phantom image depends less on channel separation and much more on relative intensity and inter-aural time delay of the sound, and human hearing response at different angles.
So....long answer...separation above 40dB doesn't improve sound quality, below 40dB it slowly degrades, the final separation is equal to the device with the least separation in the system. Once degraded by a device, no device following it can restore separation.

As you can see, SE crosstalk at 73 dB and balanced at 97 dB actually means nothing - we can't hear it.

What essentially happens is two things.

1. People read the specs, and tell themselves balanced must sound better, and thats what they talk themselves into. In a blind volume matched test, they won't tell a difference.
2. Most people don't volume match, and we are terrible at volume matching by ear (which is what a lot of people do). Most balanced circuits output a lot more power by design - therefore they are louder. People saying they hear a difference are often simply listening to one louder than the other. And we know louder is perceived as sounding better.

There are two other possibilities for differences:

• The balanced circuit actually sounds better by design (unlikely given FiiO's expertise)
• Impedance mismatch can affect frequency response for multi-BA driver set-ups (rarely happens with dynamics). You'll note the 1.2 ohm (SE) vs 1.7 ohm (bal) output.

Hope some of this makes sense. Most of the balanced discussion on Head-Fi is uninformed. Especially when you're talking IEMs and portable DAPs. It sells units though - so manufacturers have to supply what the consumers want.

 

[Grimbles]

Thanks brooko, all understood. I am focused on iem/portable dac for now (where my question has been prettty thoroughly answered) though will also be getting a desktop rig in the not too distant future.

 

[cossix]

Why does the channel separation sound better to me running balanced vs single ended? I don't notice much else honestly but the instruments are much more clear and distinct on my LCD2 and HD650 when I run them balanced. Thoughts? Don't just say it's because "louder" I agree louder sounds better but it can't make the music sound cleaner and less muddy/uncluttered in the way I just described.

 

[Brooko]

Um yes - thats exactly what happens. We perceive louder as being cleaner, clearer, more vivid - you name it. You can test this yourself. Listen at a lower level, and then turn the volume up a little - which sounds better? Don't worry - its the way we're wired - human reaction.

Try getting an SPL meter and volume matching exactly (use test tones - not music). Then get someone to help you, play real music (volume match before the switch) and have them do the switching randomly (balanced and SE) so you can't see what is going on (ie blind test). If you aren't volume matching properly and testing blind, you will never know.

Now I don't know about the Jot, and perhaps its circuits sound different (balanced vs SE) - and that could be what you're hearing with your full sized amp. But when you have a DAP like the X7ii with SE and Bal and they use the same circuits (just doubling up when balanced), and your headphones do not require the extra power (eg IEMs etc), then how could they sound different? With the HD650 (higher impedance) there can be benefit from additional voltage, but I encourage you to do proper tests. Its the only way to know for sure.

The problem is - you've read how balanced is supposed to sound better, and that's what you expect. Its called expectation bias for a reason

 

[Womaz]

This is an interesting thread as I have just purchased the IBasso DX200 and I have the CA Lyra2 in ears, but no balanced cable. Looks like I am going to have to pay over £100 for a balanced cable.....should I bother is the question now.

 

[Brooko]

Quick answer - no. The Lyra does not need the power (I have a pair with me), and being a DD there will be no change in frequency response. if you want I can measure mine and show you.

 

[Oscar-HiFi]

This might also help - it was in response to some comments from others about balanced being better on portables to single-ended. I disagree in virtually all cases, unless of course the balanced output supplies more voltage and power, and you're using high impedance cans which require that extra power. Anyway - here was my response ......

To balance the book on balanced:

From a discussion I had with someone regarding the X7ii's balanced module:


The specs will actually tell you more than your hearing will. Take the X7ii and its new balanced module.

It'll put 17mW into a 300 ohm load SE but 63 mW into the same load balanced. The voltage is also up. So if you're driving a load which requires a lot of voltage and is reasonably high impedance (eg like an HD650) there will be benefits. Not in the architecture, but in the power.

Look at the same load into an IEM though - say around 16 ohm. SE is 200 mW and balanced is 380 mW. Balanced must be better right? Not really. Balanced will chew the battery quicker, and both outputs would drive practically any IEM into the regions of deafening you. And its the same for the 32ohm load. Both are essentially over-kill.

Now lets look at the real differences - those bits that people make claims on. Remember how balanced is always cleaner, darker, more spacious, wider sound-stage ....... Lets look at cleaner first. SNR on SE is 116 dB and on balanced is 119 dB. Both are beyond what we can hear - so no difference. Both have THD measurements at 0.003% = beyond our hearing. You'll get a magnitude more distortion from your earphones. Now the important one - crosstalk (channel separation). SE is 73 dB and balanced is 97 dB. That must make a big difference - right?

I'm going to quote something bookmarked a long time ago:

As you can see, SE crosstalk at 73 dB and balanced at 97 dB actually means nothing - we can't hear it.

What essentially happens is two things.

1. People read the specs, and tell themselves balanced must sound better, and thats what they talk themselves into. In a blind volume matched test, they won't tell a difference.
2. Most people don't volume match, and we are terrible at volume matching by ear (which is what a lot of people do). Most balanced circuits output a lot more power by design - therefore they are louder. People saying they hear a difference are often simply listening to one louder than the other. And we know louder is perceived as sounding better.

There are two other possibilities for differences:

• The balanced circuit actually sounds better by design (unlikely given FiiO's expertise)
• Impedance mismatch can affect frequency response for multi-BA driver set-ups (rarely happens with dynamics). You'll note the 1.2 ohm (SE) vs 1.7 ohm (bal) output.

Hope some of this makes sense. Most of the balanced discussion on Head-Fi is uninformed. Especially when you're talking IEMs and portable DAPs. It sells units though - so manufacturers have to supply what the consumers want.

Excellent answer, it is funny how DAP manufacturers use different circuits to make balanced sound different so people assume it is better.

For example with the audio opus devices, I could never really detect any real differences from balanced to single ended, and to me that means the implementation is good.

Players like the Pioneer ones deliberately make the balanced output sound different.

Apart from providing more power, balanced really doesn't make much of a difference. I do however use balanced cables as I have a balanced output and might as well make use of it (also 1ohm output impedance over 2ohm in single ended mode)

 

[cossix]

Um yes - thats exactly what happens. We perceive louder as being cleaner, clearer, more vivid - you name it. You can test this yourself. Listen at a lower level, and then turn the volume up a little - which sounds better? Don't worry - its the way we're wired - human reaction.

Try getting an SPL meter and volume matching exactly (use test tones - not music). Then get someone to help you, play real music (volume match before the switch) and have them do the switching randomly (balanced and SE) so you can't see what is going on (ie blind test). If you aren't volume matching properly and testing blind, you will never know.

Now I don't know about the Jot, and perhaps its circuits sound different (balanced vs SE) - and that could be what you're hearing with your full sized amp. But when you have a DAP like the X7ii with SE and Bal and they use the same circuits (just doubling up when balanced), and your headphones do not require the extra power (eg IEMs etc), then how could they sound different? With the HD650 (higher impedance) there can be benefit from additional voltage, but I encourage you to do proper tests. Its the only way to know for sure.

The problem is - you've read how balanced is supposed to sound better, and that's what you expect. Its called expectation bias for a reason

The only thing I read was how balanced put out more power on the Jot and I remember some users saying more power helps with dynamics, which was why I was surprised to find that the extra power from the Jot balanced out gave no noticeable dynamic gains but instead cleared up the instrument separation. Was it worth the extra hundred dollars for the DAC module? Borderline worth it tbh, but since the Jotunheim is good enough endgame for me, I don't mind having the unit sound it's best (in terms of value, that is. I don't want to buy a Yggy to pair with the Jot, just as a clarification on the extreme end of my example). I've also had audio enthusiast friends blind AB the Jot balanced and single ended and they, without me mentioning instrument separation at all, said that balanced sounded "clearer", "more spread out", etc. When I mentioned the idea of instrument separation and clarity, they all agreed that this is what they were trying to describe

 

[Womaz]

The only thing I read was how balanced put out more power on the Jot and I remember some users saying more power helps with dynamics, which was why I was surprised to find that the extra power from the Jot balanced out gave no noticeable dynamic gains but instead cleared up the instrument separation. Was it worth the extra hundred dollars for the DAC module? Borderline worth it tbh, but since the Jotunheim is good enough endgame for me, I don't mind having the unit sound it's best (in terms of value, that is. I don't want to buy a Yggy to pair with the Jot, just as a clarification on the extreme end of my example). I've also had audio enthusiast friends blind AB the Jot balanced and single ended and they, without me mentioning instrument separation at all, said that balanced sounded "clearer", "more spread out", etc. When I mentioned the idea of instrument separation and clarity, they all agreed that this is what they were trying to describe

That does mean that you prefer the Balanced output though surely? Also for the outlay if it has improved things then Balanced is better for you.

 

[Womaz]

Quick answer - no. The Lyra does not need the power (I have a pair with me), and being a DD there will be no change in frequency response. if you want I can measure mine and show you.

No need to show me as I would not understand it anyway. I am a bit of a cynic about it too, as I cant hear a difference myself from high end expensive cables. It could be my older ears
There are so many people who swear they hear improvements with a balanced output, and as I am a bit of a novice with all of this I am easily converted

 

[Brooko]

The only thing I read was how balanced put out more power on the Jot and I remember some users saying more power helps with dynamics, which was why I was surprised to find that the extra power from the Jot balanced out gave no noticeable dynamic gains but instead cleared up the instrument separation. Was it worth the extra hundred dollars for the DAC module? Borderline worth it tbh, but since the Jotunheim is good enough endgame for me, I don't mind having the unit sound it's best (in terms of value, that is. I don't want to buy a Yggy to pair with the Jot, just as a clarification on the extreme end of my example). I've also had audio enthusiast friends blind AB the Jot balanced and single ended and they, without me mentioning instrument separation at all, said that balanced sounded "clearer", "more spread out", etc. When I mentioned the idea of instrument separation and clarity, they all agreed that this is what they were trying to describe

How were the two volume matched in the test? What method did you use ?