Balanced cables, the TRUTH.
Dec 26, 2016 at 11:54 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 16

Miguel Ruiz

New Head-Fier
Joined
Dec 9, 2016
Posts
24
Likes
10
Ok guys so, Im looking to create my perfect audio setup (headphone + Speaker)..its going to take a while, but I love planning, over planning maybe in advance, Im super noob to all this (you can read from my other post) so please correct me if im just talking gibberish  here is what I have in mind.
 
Source will be a tablet, Nvidia Shield (200Gb is plenty for music) that will be connected to a Peachtree Nova 125 (DAC+AMP) which will be connected to a pair of Magnepan Super MMG, and for my headhpone set up I was going to start with a Meze 99 Classics and a Peachtre Shift (portable DAC/AMP). BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!!! well, im not rich, at least not yet, so I was thinking about just skipping the Portable and saving that money for the Nova as it has a headphone output and save myself $300, the convince of portability was nice but dont really need it and the Meze are quiet easy to drive.
 
But doing some research I came into an article about balanced cables for headphones and for $100 more (from the protable DAC/AMP) I could get a Schiit Jotunheim that has balanced output, I would def upgrade my headphones later on to something like the LCDs, so question is, at this point does the balanced cables really make that much of a difference? Is it worth buying a whole extra headphone DAC/AMP just for that? Or will running the LCDs directly via the 3.5mm jack is good enough for most people? 
 
Bottom question is, is having a balanced output worth $400 in audio quality? 
 
Dec 27, 2016 at 12:20 AM Post #5 of 16
I just found this, so im guessing ... No.

"Balanced cables are not for speakers or anything handling power. They are a method of handling very low level signals, such as those from professional microphones. A proper balanced design requires the devices on either end (i.e. the microphone and the microphone preamp) to have balanced outputs (mic) and balanced inputs (preamp). The purpose is common mode rejection, to cancel noise picked up by the cable between microphone and preamp. This is totally irrelevant with speakers.
Even with powered speakers, meaning, obviously, they contain an amplifer, there is no benefit to be had from balanced cables."
 
Dec 27, 2016 at 12:46 AM Post #6 of 16
Was just wondering because it could alter your decision I suppose. Anyways

"Quote:
The main difference between unbalanced and balanced is this:

Unbalanced (from a general audio point of view, not just headphones) : each channel has 2 wires, one hot, and one return.
(headphones share the return, reducing the number of wires)
Balanced : each channel has two hot wires, driven in opposite directions (R+ and R- and L+ and L-)

The main advantage of Balanced signal transmission is the reduced sensitivity to external electrical noise that can degrade sound quality. "

"Quote:With a balanced amp driving a balanced set of headphones, not sharing a common ground seems to noticeably improve the accuracy of the soundstage and imaging. With both + and - leads driven in each channel, you will have twice the voltage swing in the output to your balanced phones, thereby increasing the headroom as well as the imaging and soundstage"
 
Dec 27, 2016 at 12:51 AM Post #7 of 16
i think the nova will handle the meze perfectly but the nova might not have enough juice to power the LCD series properly.
 
Dec 27, 2016 at 11:25 PM Post #8 of 16
This bring me to a whole new question, whats the pros and cons of getting a headphone DAC/AMP like the oDAC, or JDS labs The Element, Schiit Stacks or so against just getting a regular Integrated AMP/DAC like the Yamaha A-S301, Teac AI-101DA-B,Onkyo A 9050 ?
 
Dec 28, 2016 at 12:52 AM Post #9 of 16
"Balanced" means different things in the world of headphones vs everywhere else. In any other context balanced wiring means you have separate +, -, and shield. It's to improve noise rejection. For at-home use its probably unnecessary because you aren't dealing with the long runs or heavily populated environments that studios and pro audio solutions occupy. "Common mode noise rejection" is the watchword here.

"Balanced headphones" by contrast run + and - per driver, and have a complementary pair of amplifiers driving each leg, to double voltage swing. It also (purportedly) reduces crosstalk and improves slew rate and IMD performance (I would say this is more dubious because it will be more contextually dependent A) to what extent this occurs and B) to what extent this is audible). Conventional headphones are wired with separate + lines for each driver, and a shared - (it may be separate wires that join at the plug, or a single wire that runs part/most of the wiring length).

Speakers are wired with separate +/- per each, but not all amplifiers have independent returns - on some amplifiers all of their - outputs are common, and some are not. This can have an impact on things you can plug into the amplifier more than anything else.

So to your original question: it really depends. Balanced interconnects can have an advantage if your gear supports it, and if the extra noise rejection is really important for your specific setup, but in general it's probably not necessary for at-home use. Balanced wiring for your headphones usually requires modifying your headphones, or at the very least buying upgraded removable cables, in addition to a specialized amplifier. If the headphones don't need the extra voltage swing, it's probably not worth the extra time/money, but for more power hungry models, it may not be a bad idea. Also keep in mind that some amplifiers can (with appropriate adapters) drive some of those hard-to-drive headphones from their output taps, so that may be a consideration since you're going for an integrated amplifier.

I'm not sure if this helps your decision making process at all.
 
Dec 28, 2016 at 12:58 AM Post #10 of 16
Im not a professional In this area by far. First off, a few questions I'd ask myself but don't know the answer to. I know that a speaker integrated amplifier with a headphone jack uses the power of amp for the speaker load but uses resistors to feed the jack. Let's say this amplifier could do all the things that make it a good amplifier such as good soundstage, low noise, control of the most minute dynamics and details, texture, realism. the amp was engineered to do that to a speaker. Do those traits carry over to the comparatively small load of the headphone? Not sure

Now here's what I have gathered as far as the power differences. Once again, not a professional in this area.
Maybe someone will chime in a help if I'm missing something here,
a speaker amp only needs to handle fluctuation of impedance in an area from on average 4ohm to 8 ohm. There is a lot of current needed in this area but the voltage stays the same and is low. This is fine for a planar headphone as there is no impedance swing varying through frequencies. The integrated speaker amp will simply use a series of resistors to restrict the power it has for speakers which is current. A low impedance planar needs current so this is good.
However, some dynamic headphones need more voltage such as a 600ohm beyerdynamic t1. A speaker amp was not designed for this type of voltage and it's swings. Now I know that the voltage output is a constant and im pretty sure the speaker amp can come up with the power to drive them to listening levels given that they spec it to release a certain amount but I don't think it's ideal.
 
Dec 28, 2016 at 1:29 AM Post #11 of 16
Im not a professional In this area by far. First off, a few questions I'd ask myself but don't know the answer to. I know that a speaker integrated amplifier with a headphone jack uses the power of amp for the speaker load but uses resistors to feed the jack. Let's say this amplifier could do all the things that make it a good amplifier such as good soundstage, low noise, control of the most minute dynamics and details, texture, realism. the amp was engineered to do that to a speaker. Do those traits carry over to the comparatively small load of the headphone? Not sure


Not all receivers, integrated amps, etc work this way. Some use separate circuits to drive the headphone output, usually an op-amp based design (but I've read of some implementing IC amps, like the popular TI TPA6120 family). The pre-amp/gain stages are usually preserved through though. It's usually a safe bet that if the amplifier is a switching design (e.g. Class D, Class H, Tripath, etc) the headphone amp is a separate circuit (because switching amplifiers generally don't like being run single-ended/bridged), and many DSP-enabled products use separate headphone output circuits as well (to better integrate with the DSP side).

To the question about sound: it will be somewhat different (vs with speakers) no matter what. In the case of the main amplifier driving a resistor network, you usually have a large output impedance, which can interact with reactive loads and have an impact on frequency response, plus the whole "synergy and pairing" thing of that amplifier + the headphones (and remember headphones are a lot more sensitive to noise floor and channel tracking). If it's a separate circuit it can be a whole 'nother animal from the main amps. That said, IME hi-fi amplifiers with headphone outs have never sounded "bad" - sure some of them are better than others, but usually they're always at least decent sounding. For example my DSP-A1 has an op-amp circuit for the headphone output, and while its certainly not the best sounding amplifier I've ever heard, it's more than good enough sounding with anything I've plugged into it. By contrast, I've got an old Kenwood that runs something like 650R off the main amps, and while its a very clean and neutral amp into speakers, into most headphones its warmer than a sweater fresh out of the dryer.

Now here's what I have gathered as far as the power differences. Once again, not a professional in this area.
Maybe someone will chime in a help if I'm missing something here,
a speaker amp only needs to handle fluctuation of impedance in an area from on average 4ohm to 8 ohm. There is a lot of current needed in this area but the voltage stays the same and is low. This is fine for a planar headphone as there is no impedance swing varying through frequencies. The integrated speaker amp will simply use a series of resistors to restrict the power it has for speakers which is current. A low impedance planar needs current so this is good.


Firstly, speakers usually have significantly broader impedance fluctuations than "4 to 8 ohms" - that's just nominal impedance. There's also generally more of them than you'll find on a headphone (due to the crossover and multiple driver/box resonances). The voltage output of a conventional speaker amplifier is also usually an order of magnitude (or greater) higher than what most any headphone will survive (or any headphone amplifier will provide) - 20Vrms is not an uncommon output (and voltage does not "stay the same" - you adjust it up/down as you adjust volume up/down - technically the amplifier is providing X voltage gain and you're varying what's going into it, but the output voltage is what varies up and down, not the output current (which is the result of impedance + output voltage interaction (per Ohm's Law) and this is where/how you get some speakers popping amplifiers by demanding more current than the amplifier can service). Current delivery is orders of magnitude higher than what any headphone will need (or survive). The resistor network is generally trying to bring the output down to around 2-5Vrms (the IEC spec is 5Vrms at 120R, but for a lot of amplifiers 120R is not enough to get the level that low, so its not uncommon to see more 5Vrms at 400-600R).


Due to the resistor output network, the output power is pretty stable into a wide range of loads, and distortion is generally minimized (this is why the IEC specifies things the way it does). However that high output impedance will interact with reactive loads (this doesn't mean a low output impedance is "better" or "worse" - its just a different kind of interaction).

If you want to see an example of that plotted:

(What am I looking at? output power vs load impedance from an amplifier that provides a 120ohm output - this is an opamp driven amplifier)

Distortion is well managed too:


Power output is pretty consistent across the range of loads, and distortion says pretty low. On lower output impedance amplifiers it isn't uncommon to see much bigger numbers into low impedance loads, and power output to drop off more significantly into higher impedance loads.

You can read more about the IEC's standard here:
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/headphone_attenuator.html (the actual standard is described in an IEC standards book that is behind a paywall)

You're probably right that even a resistor-driven output will not be sufficient for a very hard to drive pair of headphones (e.g. K1000, HE-6, etc) which is where balanced drive via speaker taps may be worth consideration - the jack on the front may not have enough oomph, but the taps on the back probably have more than any ten cans should ever need. :L3000:


However, some dynamic headphones need more voltage such as a 600ohm beyerdynamic t1. A speaker amp was not designed for this type of voltage and it's swings. Now I know that the voltage output is a constant and im pretty sure the speaker amp can come up with the power to drive them to listening levels given that they spec it to release a certain amount but I don't think it's ideal.


The T1's require a fraction of a volt to reach fairly loud levels - the output of a typical speaker amplifier is still more than enough to cook them off pretty quickly. Hooked into the output through a resistor network should be no problem, because again the performance will be pretty consistent as a result of that design; running from a dedicated circuit may or may not work out well based on whatever that circuit can do in terms of voltage supply.
 
Mar 20, 2017 at 1:20 PM Post #12 of 16

I saw you know a lot of theory things. here may I ask you a quick question:)
I wanted to open a new thread but I didn't figure out where was the post button, not sure if I was not allowed because i was a pretty new account.
I got a beyerdynamic T1 2nd recently. They support balanced cable. The official cable was like $145, which's too much for me(just wanna a try first),
and that cable had a 4pin XLR, need an extra adapter to my device's double 3pin XLR.
 
so I want to know that, in theory, will this work:
(just found I had no permission to post images)
 
so basically, the T1.2 headphones had two 3.5 ports, one for each side,
the official cable was something like with two 3.5 plugs at one end for the headphones, and a 4pin XLR at the other end.
can I instead get two separate 3.5 to 3pin XLR cables (which were not designed for balanced headphones at all, they were just regular 3.5 to XLR cables),
one for each side on the headphones, then simply connect these two cables to my dac(which provided two 3pin XLR output)?
These regular cables were like only $5, if they would work properly I thought good for try =_=
 
Thanks.
 
Mar 21, 2017 at 1:17 AM Post #13 of 16
I saw you know a lot of theory things. here may I ask you a quick question:)
I wanted to open a new thread but I didn't figure out where was the post button, not sure if I was not allowed because i was a pretty new account.
I got a beyerdynamic T1 2nd recently. They support balanced cable. The official cable was like $145, which's too much for me(just wanna a try first),
and that cable had a 4pin XLR, need an extra adapter to my device's double 3pin XLR.

so I want to know that, in theory, will this work:
(just found I had no permission to post images)

so basically, the T1.2 headphones had two 3.5 ports, one for each side,
the official cable was something like with two 3.5 plugs at one end for the headphones, and a 4pin XLR at the other end.
can I instead get two separate 3.5 to 3pin XLR cables (which were not designed for balanced headphones at all, they were just regular 3.5 to XLR cables),
one for each side on the headphones, then simply connect these two cables to my dac(which provided two 3pin XLR output)?
These regular cables were like only $5, if they would work properly I thought good for try =_=

Thanks.


If I'm understanding you right, basically the headphones have TRS balanced mono on each side, and you want to take TRS balanced mono to XLR balanced mono. Yes that should work just fine, as long as polarity is preserved thru the cable and it isn't doing anything weird impedance wise or anything of that sort (basically you want straight-thru copper) . The whole "will the mega bucks expensive cable make it sound better" is hotly debated, but there's not a good reason for that imho, nor to buy the "mega bucks expensive cable" - its probably just 90-95% markup and end of the day copper is copper. :xf_eek:
 
Mar 21, 2017 at 8:51 PM Post #14 of 16
If I'm understanding you right, basically the headphones have TRS balanced mono on each side, and you want to take TRS balanced mono to XLR balanced mono. Yes that should work just fine, as long as polarity is preserved thru the cable and it isn't doing anything weird impedance wise or anything of that sort (basically you want straight-thru copper) . The whole "will the mega bucks expensive cable make it sound better" is hotly debated, but there's not a good reason for that imho, nor to buy the "mega bucks expensive cable" - its probably just 90-95% markup and end of the day copper is copper.
redface.gif

Thanks. I'm not sure if it's allowed to send ebay links, the cable looks like:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOKO-XLR-Male-to-3-5mm-Stereo-Male-Cable-6-foot-/301378076462?hash=item462b887f2e:g:TKEAAOSwHgVW7ap5
 
I would like to get 2 of these. cost 10 bucks in total.
The only concern was that for professional headphone balanced cables, well they look like in the form of TRS to XLR, 
but since they are single cables(rather than 2 separate ones), I don't know if they have special design inside.
you just told me 2 balanced mono cables will work. I also did some more researches myself and didn't see why not.
yea, copper is copper. lmao. so I won't just go the beyerdynamic original copper.
  Thanks a lot.
 
Mar 21, 2017 at 8:58 PM Post #15 of 16
If I'm understanding you right, basically the headphones have TRS balanced mono on each side, and you want to take TRS balanced mono to XLR balanced mono. Yes that should work just fine, as long as polarity is preserved thru the cable and it isn't doing anything weird impedance wise or anything of that sort (basically you want straight-thru copper) . The whole "will the mega bucks expensive cable make it sound better" is hotly debated, but there's not a good reason for that imho, nor to buy the "mega bucks expensive cable" - its probably just 90-95% markup and end of the day copper is copper.
redface.gif

 
Yea. That was exactly what I wanted to say. Two mono cables.
My only concern was that for the original professional headphones cables, although they look in the form of TRS to XLR, 
but since they are individual single cables(rather than 2 separate monos), I couldn't make sure if they had special design inside. 
you told me 2 cables should work fine, and I also did some more researches myself and didn't see why not.
They were only 10 bucks in total, I would definitely go for a try.
p.s highly agree with your 'imho', so I won't just go the Beyerdynamic Original Copper.
Thanks a lot. 
 
and actually I typed this reply twice. The first time I tried to put a ebay link to show the cable, then the post failed.
too many rules in the forum.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top