Balanced cable on an IEM - snake oil?
Oct 14, 2019 at 5:10 PM Post #31 of 46
I personally like the 4.4mm Pentaconn jack, but that's coz it's much beefier than the standard 3.5mm. Oh, and co-workers can't just steal my headphones and use it when I'm away.

If we're talking about 2.5mm here, I'd actually take the single-ended 3.5mm instead: that 2.5mm looks like it's gonna snap any time soon.
 
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Oct 14, 2019 at 5:11 PM Post #32 of 46
as the guy who doesn't capitalize most stuff when he should, I find it particularly ironic that I get to point out the significance between mW and MW ^_^

now I've found somewhere 103dB/mW 27ohm, does that look like the IEM you're talking about? (they seem to have different versions so I'm not sure).
if those specs are correct, 20mW means pushing the IEM to 116dBSPL at 1kHz. and that remains true whether you're feeding the IEM from a balanced source or a single ended one. let's say you have a device with both single and balanced output. let's say the balanced output when set at the same volume has twice the voltage and OMG 4 times the power output!!! what all that is saying is that the IEM will have the music 6dB louder. P=voltage²/impedance twice the voltage is the same as 4 times the power and the IEM playing music 6dB louder. into that same load(the IEM) all those stuff are really saying the same and being the same. so once you've plugged the IEM into the balanced output with your super duper balanced cable, the music in this example is going to be 6dB louder than your usual preferred level, so what do you? you turn down the volume by about 6dB and 'magic!' the IEM is now consuming 4 times less power again. you won't send more power without knowing, if it's not louder, it's the same power, and the dangerous level here(again if my specs are the right ones), is when you listen to music with peaks at 116dB. I don't know for you, but I don't do that too often, or ever. :wink:

false alarm.

So basically don't listen to them as loudly as an airplane taking off.
I should've known that power = volume.
Alright, thanks for that!

Cheers!
 
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Oct 18, 2022 at 10:55 PM Post #33 of 46
probably not. some will argue that a given DAP works better balanced, and in some cases that will be correct(or not). or they just happen to enjoy how the new impedance affects the signature of the IEM. or they just get tricked by the oldest audio magic, "louder is better". all that of course is going to be a case by case matter and not at all a global balanced vs single ended difference.
I said somewhere not long ago that I don't really get the idea of balanced headphones or IEMs. it doesn't make much sense to me electrically.
This is the take :)
 
Oct 18, 2022 at 11:18 PM Post #34 of 46
There are more theoretical benefits to balanced than more power. It's very commonly employed in RF and higher frequency electronics and even for longer pro runs in audio because it blocks additive noise (common mode).

From a passive perspective, IEMs actually would benefit most from the common mode immunization, but the reality is that the active effects from the amp dominate. Balanced has higher S/N, but it's at the cost of twice the noise floor...

Basically, a super sensitive, low impedance IEM would be the most likely to produce audible noise from EMI on a single ended cable, so they are ideal in that sense for balanced application. But the same sensitivity is a liability for a balanced amplifier, which has 2x the noise of its single ended counterpart, and all that extra S/N is just unused volume for that sensitive IEM. In practice I've yet to find a balanced source that doesn't hiss a bit on super high sensitivity IEMs (112 dB+ sensitivity lol), which means having to add extra attenuation (and output impedance)... no thanks.
 
Oct 19, 2022 at 10:23 AM Post #35 of 46
There are more theoretical benefits to balanced than more power. It's very commonly employed in RF and higher frequency electronics and even for longer pro runs in audio because it blocks additive noise (common mode).
No, you are one of the many victims of the weird way the headphone world uses the word "balanced".
In the headphone world this means the ability to use a headphone amp with a push/pull topology.
So an active "ground". Hence you need 2x 2 wires as you can't do this using a common ground.
If you look at a typical "balanced" headphone cable, you will se it is 2x 2 wires, indeed 2x single ended. Just like connecting speakers to an amp.
You can't have common noise rejection with a 2 wire design, you need 3. (not to mention the differential amp needed at the receiver, ever seen a headphone featuring one?)
 
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Oct 19, 2022 at 5:24 PM Post #36 of 46
You can't have common noise rejection with a 2 wire design, you need 3. (not to mention the differential amp needed at the receiver, ever seen a headphone featuring one?)
You are fundamentally mistaken.

Common mode noise rejection exists on all differential transmission lines with symmetric ground reference ('active' lol or other). D Pozar or Balanis (for balun inclusion) have pretty thorough discussion on the topic if you're actually interested in learning more.

Heck even Wikipedia explicitly confirms the 2 pin case for audio specifically:

As long as the impedances are balanced, noise will couple equally into the two wires (and be rejected by a differential amplifier), regardless of the signal that is present on them.[1][2] A simple method of driving a balanced line is to inject the signal into the "hot" wire through a known source impedance, and connect the "cold" wire to the signal's local ground reference through an identical impedance. Due to common misconceptions about differential signalling, this is often referred to as a quasi-balanced or impedance-balanced output, though it is, in fact, fully balanced and will reject common-mode interference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio#Differential_signaling
 
Oct 19, 2022 at 7:39 PM Post #37 of 46
Balanced IEM cables have zero to do with Balanced Pro audio connections via XLR or TRS. It's a big debacle. A circuit *might* have better crosstalk with a balanced topology or not, entirely up to the circuit. I just ignore the hype.
 
Oct 19, 2022 at 11:28 PM Post #38 of 46
You are fundamentally mistaken.

Common mode noise rejection exists on all differential transmission lines with symmetric ground reference ('active' lol or other). D Pozar or Balanis (for balun inclusion) have pretty thorough discussion on the topic if you're actually interested in learning more.

Heck even Wikipedia explicitly confirms the 2 pin case for audio specifically:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio#Differential_signaling
I can confirm this as I've seen the BBC Broadcasting House (the central London HQ for radio) was wired with 2 cable unshielded twisted pairs throughout the building until the nineties. This low tech antiquated system works if you really carefully match the source impedance, have very high input impedance, and carefully tuned CMRR. I think the "pin 1" was the metal building structure.

This has NOTHING to do with balanced cabling on IEMs. Balanced cables for headphones, regardless of balanced outputs from the amplifier, give separate ground returns for the channels. A good thing everything else being equal, as it separates the ground return currents. A small effect, but why not do it if you can.
 
Nov 5, 2022 at 7:31 AM Post #39 of 46
I have no interest in trying to convince you of anything. I can see by your sig that you’ve got it all figured out. I was merely responding to your replies in as honestly as I could based on the original post, which is that I feel there are times when I would want to use a balanced cable with my IEMs for reasons other than power requirements.

Man I really don’t like the SS forum. It’s never a conversation, just a bunch of dudes gaslighting anyone who disagrees with them that they shouldn’t trust their own ears.

I’m outta here.

I personally like the 4.4mm Pentaconn jack, but that's coz it's much beefier than the standard 3.5mm. Oh, and co-workers can't just steal my headphones and use it when I'm away.

If we're talking about 2.5mm here, I'd actually take the single-ended 3.5mm instead: that 2.5mm looks like it's gonna snap any time soon.
Right Pentaconn offers a more robust plug which can be wanted. Back in 2019 4.4mm plugs were rare. I even went on a plane flight to obtain a few as there were none nearby for sale. Now the times have changed with almost every manufacturer offering a switchable plug. Now we have our choice of 3.5mm/2.5mm or 4.4mm. It really is a situation by situation application for balanced. As with the Sony Walkmans, the WM1A and WM1Z....they offer two separate amplifiers inside the device. Each has various components which are different. I truly don’t know if balanced sounds better? But in the Sony DAPs the application of two separate amplifiers offers two different sound signatures. 4.4mm has more power, and is more contrasting in tone. The 3.5mm offers less power and at times is actually better for a few IEMs, due to offering a slightly more laidback tone. Also interestingly enough now 4.4mm has been used for a wide selection cable builds which can allow a person to choose various materials to fine-tune their IEM. Silver Hybrids cables now offer a slight balance of tone joining copper and silver. Graphene is now used to offer more robustness and gold like copper adds an authoritative stance to the signal. I don’t have any pure silver cables but seem to be having fun with different ratios of silver added. I have received a whole range of different cables finding an bouquet of tones generated from them, each having a specific character which goes with a specific IEM.
 
Nov 5, 2022 at 12:40 PM Post #40 of 46
A bouquet of perceptual error... An overflowing cornucopia of bias... A smorgasbord of impedance mismatches...
 
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Nov 5, 2022 at 12:41 PM Post #41 of 46
Nov 5, 2022 at 12:49 PM Post #42 of 46
A bouquet of perceptual error... An overflowing cornucopia of bias... A smorgasbord of impedance mismatches...
An Apple Dongle is all you really need, right? Hah :)

All amps sound the same....right?

All studios are standardized....right?

Edit:
Cables don’t change a thing! Right?
 
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Nov 5, 2022 at 2:31 PM Post #44 of 46
yes. focus on things that actually do make a difference. the rest of it, just get right.
 
Nov 5, 2022 at 10:19 PM Post #45 of 46
I know that and that's not my concern. What I want to know is, would using a balanced source with my IEM make a difference considering the cable is just 1.2 metres.
The snake oil is thinking that Balanced in itself is better.
HOWEVER: if the performance of balanced output of your headphone amp is better (more power or lower noise) than the single ended output of that same amp, then yes you will benefit from going to Balanced. In the case of IEM you would not benefit much from power, but definitely from lower noise.
Summary: depends on your amp specs.
 

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