AVGuide hates usb
Sep 15, 2009 at 9:46 PM Post #31 of 77
jitter is alive and strong, unless your using very expensive dac's like lavry or dac 1. Most consumer level devices measure in the 100's of PS jitter. And as far as usb is concerned, there is potential there, but most of the chips that handle usb receiving are crap and manage to mess it up pretty good. So while usb has great potential to be good, cheap chips ruin it. The quality can be only as good as the weakest link, be it the op-amp, poor quality cables, poor receiver chip, poor clocking crystal, or cheap capacitors. There is no denying, quality components have effect on sound, cheap caps, poor power supplies, etc. It's not to hard to figure out, hook a HD650 straight into an ipod, then try a cmoy, then a gilmore lite amp, then a high end headphone amp, you can't honestly say there is not a clear and obvious improvement every step of the way.

While I don't agree with everything in this article, some of it does have merit. And some things in audiophile land are indeed ridiculous, some are real. Cables, can and do make a difference, im not so sure with USB cables, but analog cables definatly do. I think the carpet thing is pretty ridiculous, but I also believe isolation can make a difference, in different situations, like tube dampers. For example, it would be a bad idea to put a tube amp/dac on top of a cd player that vibrates.

SPDIF interface has been around for a long time, and has had plenty of time to be perfected. USB Reciever chips and interfaces are pretty new, and most of them are crap, the things from Empirical audio being the exception, but the CM108 and 27xx chips used in most dacs are garbage. Even a low quality spdif transport can sound better. For example, in my setup, my computers crappy onboard spdif is better then my dac's usb input.

It seems some of you are comparing USB and/or Digital to things like Digital hard drives, it's very different, most usb devices are not time critical, as long as the data arrives the same way it go's out, everything is great, the timing does not matter, the data is not "Streamed". Audio is different, it must be streamed and timed properly, this is where the USB interface normally gets it wrong, and it's the reciever chips, and clocks that are responsible.

and with all due respect, this is a hi-fi enthusiast forum, if your happy with ibuds and 128kb mp3's what the hell are you doing here? lol
 
Sep 15, 2009 at 9:50 PM Post #32 of 77
My computer uses a SSD. Should I be worrying that my current carpet might not be adequate enough to absorb the 1,000g's of shock that the drive is designed and specified to operate in?
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 12:23 AM Post #33 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW /img/forum/go_quote.gif
jitter is alive and strong, unless your using very expensive dac's like lavry or dac 1.


Rubbish.

Quote:

And as far as usb is concerned, there is potential there, but most of the chips that handle usb receiving are crap and manage to mess it up pretty good.


Nope.

Did you ever take a look at usb dac measurements?

Quote:

It's not to hard to figure out, hook a HD650 straight into an ipod, then try a cmoy, then a gilmore lite amp, then a high end headphone amp, you can't honestly say there is not a clear and obvious improvement every step of the way.


I bet I can, honestly.

Quote:

While I don't agree with everything in this article, some of it does have merit. And some things in audiophile land are indeed ridiculous, some are real.


Most are ridiculous.

Quote:

SPDIF interface has been around for a long time, and has had plenty of time to be perfected. USB Reciever chips and interfaces are pretty new, and most of them are crap, the things from Empirical audio being the exception, but the CM108 and 27xx chips used in most dacs are garbage. Even a low quality spdif transport can sound better. For example, in my setup, my computers crappy onboard spdif is better then my dac's usb input.


Not really.

I'd love to do a DBT with you.

Quote:

It seems some of you are comparing USB and/or Digital to things like Digital hard drives, it's very different, most usb devices are not time critical, as long as the data arrives the same way it go's out, everything is great, the timing does not matter, the data is not "Streamed". Audio is different, it must be streamed and timed properly, this is where the USB interface normally gets it wrong, and it's the reciever chips, and clocks that are responsible.


USB normally get's it right, but glitches can happen more often with USB, yup.
However this has nothing to do with the cables, which is what we're talking about.

Quote:

and with all do respect, this is a hi-fi enthusiast forum, if your happy with ibuds and 128kb mp3's what the hell are you doing here? lol


It's 'due' and what are you trying to say with that?
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 12:27 AM Post #34 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebby /img/forum/go_quote.gif
My computer uses a SSD. Should I be worrying that my current carpet might not be adequate enough to absorb the 1,000g's of shock that the drive is designed and specified to operate in?


I don't know you, so this could be a serious question.
dt880smile.png


SSD = solid state drive
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:03 PM Post #35 of 77
xnor has converted me, i take everything back
rolleyes.gif


yeah, Benchmark spends thosands on proprietary async usb interface, what where those fools thinking, they could just use a 99 cent cm108 chip, there must be no difference. And those clowns that use an Off-Ramp and/or Pace car are just total fools, there's no differnce between that and a transit, pop pulse, or my computers onboard spdif output. So much rubbish and hogwash in this hi-fi industry.

I don't have to look at usb dac measurments, when you can browse the forums and find many post where people have USB dac's that also accept SPDIF input, when they compare the two, usb comes out behind. I can hear it in my own dac as well, the usb interface is crap in comparison to spdif. (On my dac). And the cheap usb reciever chips that most of these dac's use, have indeed been measured.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:15 PM Post #36 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW /img/forum/go_quote.gif
xnor has converted me, i take everything back
rolleyes.gif


yeah, Benchmark spends thosands on proprietary async usb interface, what where those fools thinking, they could just use a 99 cent cm108 chip, there must be no difference. And those clowns that use an Off-Ramp and/or Pace car are just total fools, there's no differnce between that and a transit, pop pulse, or my computers onboard spdif output. So much rubbish and hogwash in this hi-fi industry.

I don't have to look at usb dac measurments, when you can browse the forums and find many post where people have USB dac's that also accept SPDIF input, when they compare the two, usb comes out behind. I can hear it in my own dac as well, the usb interface is crap in comparison to spdif. (On my dac). And the cheap usb reciever chips that most of these dac's use, have indeed been measured.


I wasn't looking for comparisons of USB and toslink. I was looking for support for the statement that most DACS generate hundreds of ns of jitter. By the way, one of Benchmark's engineers has been over on hydrogen audio where he has admitted that much of the work done on the DAC1/pre had to do with reducing noise/distortion/jitter well below what is audible. He said that it was a luxury to be able to work that way and stated great admiration for those who design on the edge of audibility instead of merely over-spending and over-engineering.

There are plenty of less expensive DACs that are audibly as good as the Benchmark, and quite a few that even measure as good.

P
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 5:31 PM Post #37 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I don't know you, so this could be a serious question.
dt880smile.png


SSD = solid state drive


It was written with a definite dose of sarcasm.
biggrin.gif
Not to mention that if the drive mounted in a computer is experiencing 1,000G you most likely have more pressing matters to worry about than the quality of your music.
wink.gif
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 6:19 PM Post #38 of 77
I'd recommend buying one of these wood platforms to help your SSD play vibration free:

Mapleshade Audio Products - Maple Isobase Cradle for Laptops & Other Portables

according to the description:

Quote:

Whenever you’re listening or downloading to your laptop, just lay it on the Isobase Cradle’s rounded brass support footers. Play your favorite MP3, WAV, DVD, or even streaming audio and hear bass punch, treble air and warm detail you would never have expected.


 
Sep 16, 2009 at 8:40 PM Post #41 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There are plenty of less expensive DACs that are audibly as good as the Benchmark, and quite a few that even measure as good.

P


Mind pointing out two or three? I have listened to lots of dacs at home and at meets and have not found one yet. But then again, I have not heard all dacs.
 
Sep 16, 2009 at 11:20 PM Post #42 of 77
Sep 16, 2009 at 11:21 PM Post #43 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by bixby /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But then again, I have not heard all dacs.


That's good because you're not supposed to hear dacs anyway.
tongue.gif
 
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