1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.

    Dismiss Notice

Audiophile Placebo

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by catharsis, Apr 21, 2009.
First
 
Back
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
10
Next
 
Last
  1. 883dave
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spanimal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I bought the Belkin power filter on YOUR recommendations - for 300 aussie dollars it still is the single most valued investment I have made, bringing clearly audible changes to anything I connected to it. I still don't know why it works but it does, It taught me the term "noise floor" like the HD650 taught me the term "Audiophile" whilst the K701 showed me "detail" and "sound stage". I'm still not entirely certain of the term "pratt" hmmmm. Anyway, thanks mate.[​IMG]



    I agree "noise floor", "Audiophile", "detail" and "sounstage" make sense, and I can hear, but, "prat" not sure what that is???. Could it refer to instrument seperation, ie a lower noise floor allowing for more detail?
     
  2. JaZZ Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I agree "noise floor", "Audiophile", "detail" and "sounstage" make sense, and I can hear, but, "prat" not sure what that is???. Could it refer to instrument seperation, ie a lower noise floor allowing for more detail?



    «Pace, Rhythm and Timing». A term I don't particularly like, since it seems to favor a coloration emphasizing the rhythmical content of the music (think Grado). On the other hand, it can also mean an accurate reproduction of transients as opposed to a leveling of dynamic contrasts and a smoothing of dynamic attacks.
    .
     
  3. Kees
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I agree "noise floor", "Audiophile", "detail" and "sounstage" make sense, and I can hear, but, "prat" not sure what that is???. Could it refer to instrument seperation, ie a lower noise floor allowing for more detail?



    In my opinion PRAT is mostly present when there setup is capable of displaying the maximum dynamic range in an effortless way.
    It makes the rhythm sound better articulated.
    That means you need drivers that can move fast. You need an amp that can handle the drivers very accurately. You need a recording that is not too compressed.
    It is also the reason that balanced amps can improve the PRAT of your headphones, because they can handle the drivers with more power and with more precision.
     
  4. gevorg
    Do you believe this? (non-audiophile vs. audiophile blind test of speaker system)

    Matrix-Hifi
     
  5. nick_charles Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gevorg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Do you believe this? (non-audiophile vs. audiophile blind test of speaker system)

    Matrix-Hifi




    What is not to believe ?

    Personally I have more trust in DBT than SBT as in SBT it is easy to accidentally or deliberately give cues to listeners that will give the game away.

    Therefore it is possible that the experimenters gave out signals that biased the listeners i.e that some of the listeners interpreted the swap as swapping to good system and some interpreted it as swapping to weak system and vice versa and others were unable to interpet the cues.

    However on a pragmatic level if a $12,000 CD/amp combo is not absolutely and unambiguously identified as *different* to a $700 DVD/amp combo then you have to say one is overpriced (on sonic grounds) !
     
  6. JaZZ Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gevorg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Do you believe this?



    Hard to believe, yes, but I have no reason not to believe it. I think this can only happen with an unfamiliar setup, in unfamiliar acoustics. Or it could have been bad synergy in the case of the high-end setup. At least the clearly better source alone should have paid off.

    In any event this example shows to me how dubious DBT can be. Moreover, a test result based on a democratic majority is not very informative.
    .
     
  7. Bullseye
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gevorg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Do you believe this? (non-audiophile vs. audiophile blind test of speaker system)

    Matrix-Hifi




    I do. The way they performed the DBT is good enough for rational people not to doubt it. Bare in mind that all the people who make those DBT have been audiophiles or music lovers that have spent thousands of euros on equipment till they reached a point where they doubted all the "magic" involved without any scientific proof. They decided to try it out in a way where no placebo could blind their judgment. The result is that one.

    They also have no reason to lie to the public as they don't get any benefit from it.

    Quote:

    Hard to believe, yes, but I have no reason not to believe it. I think this can only happen with an unfamiliar setup, in unfamiliar acoustics. Or it could have been bad synergy in the case of the high-end setup. At least the clearly better source alone should have paid off.

    In any event this example shows to me how dubious DBT can be. Moreover, a test result based on a democratic majority is not very informative.



    Jazz, let me point out that you keep giving excuses as for why it could be flawed. Talking about acoustics this guys really know how to study the acoustics on a room and tweak what it is necessary.

    Then as you say, even if there were a "bad synergy" in the "High-end" setup, the differences should be still clearly noticeable.

    The test was not based on "democracy", guessing was taken in account (as I believe some of the believers) would have done. I don't believe the test they did was dubious at all. It was well thought.
     
  8. nick_charles Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I do. The way they performed the DBT is good enough for rational people not to doubt it.



    It was not a Double Blind Test !
     
  9. JaZZ Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I don't believe the test they did was dubious at all. It was well thought.



    No, the test itself wasn't dubious, but the result is. I'm sure in my setup I would clearly prefer the Wadia 6 to the Sony DVP-NS355 DVD player. And nobody can talk me into believing that they sound the same. [​IMG]
    .
     
  10. Bullseye
    Oh, and if you want to see one of the most amazing DIY projects done by a spanish member from Matrix Hi-Fi, that goes from the room till the speakers, check some of this pictures and the thread's link I will share. It is indeed one of the most impressive things I have seen. The majority is DIY, he has followed his designs, and he knows people who can help him with some materials.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Some of his speakers done by himself:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    (note, some of the image's links don't show)

    matrixhifi.com :: Ver tema - El mejor conjunto sala-altavoces del mundo

    Click on the numbers to check all the pictures on 9 pages.

    I bet that guy enjoys that room more than anyone.

    EDIT: Didn't realize i was posting in this thread, it was meant to go to another thread... might move it if you don't like it here...
     
  11. IPodPJ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spanimal /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    I bought the Belkin power filter on YOUR recommendations - for 300 aussie dollars it still is the single most valued investment I have made, bringing clearly audible changes to anything I connected to it. I still don't know why it works but it does, It taught me the term "noise floor" like the HD650 taught me the term "Audiophile" whilst the K701 showed me "detail" and "sound stage". I'm still not entirely certain of the term "pratt" hmmmm. Anyway, thanks mate.[​IMG]



    Wow, well I'm glad it worked for you! I actually edited my review a bit later to note that it wasn't quite as good as I first thought, but I have my TV plugged into it now and it works fine there. It's still a great value for the $50 I paid for it, and anyone new to power conditioners will really appreciate it. $300 seems a little expensive. You could get a good cryo-treated PS Audio Duet for that price. But if it works for you and it made a big difference in your system, that's all that matters. I wish more people would realize how vital clean power is to their audio gear.

    Anyway, this probably isn't the right thread to be discussing this, but you can PM me if you have any questions. [​IMG]
     
  12. IPodPJ
    I conducted my own placebo test on certain members of a thread on AVS Forum without their knowledge. What I instructed them to do in no way would harm their television, and after the test I told them of everything I had done. I was banned from that thread for deception of the members, however most sent me messages thanking me for exposing the truth.

    Our certain television model has received various firmware updates and with each one most people claim to notice differences on picture quality. So I came up with a test involving a few buttons being pressed on the television that did nothing more than enable demo mode, and obviously did not alter picture quality in the slightest. I exclaimed I was given this information from the manufacturer and that it definitely improved picture quality, and that I had done it myself and confirmed the results. (It was a bit more elaborate, about 2 pages worth, but my summary here conveys the point.) I should also note that I was a trusted member of the thread as I had already gotten several real firmware updates and provided members with download links. At the time, these updates were not easy to get from the manufacturer, but I had acquired them.

    So anyway, several days after I had informed people of this amazing way to improve picture quality, about 12 people posted their opinions on this "technique." 2 of them felt it made no difference but the other 10 reported back with everything from "made a noticeable difference" to "I can't believe how amazing the picture is now!"

    So what does this prove? To me, it proved that very few people are capable of actually perceiving changes in picture quality to their televisions. And video isn't anywhere as near as interpretive as audio. If there's a difference in picture quality and two of the same TVs are side by side, everyone will see it. That isn't so with audio. So if such a gross error can be made with a video test, would subjective audio interpretations with regards to "better quality" be any more trustworthy?

    I'm curious to hear what you think.
     
  13. spanimal
    I also paid 900 dollars for k701 headphones downhere.
     
  14. Ashirgo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif

    So what does this prove? To me, it proved that very few people are capable of actually perceiving changes in picture quality to their televisions. And video isn't anywhere as near as interpretive as audio. If there's a difference in picture quality and two of the same TVs are side by side, everyone will see it. That isn't so with audio. So if such a gross error can be made with a video test, would subjective audio interpretations with regards to "better quality" be any more trustworthy?

    I'm curious to hear what you think.




    Well, to my mind it proves (yet and yet again) that people are delusive per se, but I am highly convinced that every true audiophile will doubt and deny the importance of such conclusions, so your ingenious project is to no avail in that discourse [​IMG]
     
  15. TheAttorney
    No doubt the DBT test was set up correctly and we should assume that the organisers did have a clue as to what they were doing. But I think DBT (and similar controlled tests) are a very poor way of differentiating subtle sound differences - other than frequency, volume and gross distortion. All the mind tricks like Placebo do indeed plague unstructured subjective tests. But there are just as many mind tricks that make DBT inherently unreliable. I personally think these latter ones are more of a risk than the former.

    I don't know if it has a name, but let's call it inverse-placebo for now. Where the mind naturally assumes that two near-identical sounds are in fact identical. Another example: I've played the same piece of music to myself on unchanged equipment - each time it appears to sound a bit different. Stress is another biggie. Some can no doubt react to all these these things better than me, but the risks are all still there in some form. How do you know you've successfully overcome them all?

    My wish is that the scientists here would turn just some of their critical analysis to the potential fallibility of DBT instead of using all that good energy to pick faults with other people's views.
     
First
 
Back
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
10
Next
 
Last

Share This Page