[JoshNurse]

I am mainly looking for audio quality. The price can go up to $300 for a portable amp. I would highly appreciate it if you guys help me to finally make up my mind.

 

[olegausany]

Between those two definitely DragonFly. I also considering ODAC/O2 combo in one but need to find out if you can easily return it if I don't like it. Also stay away from Arcam rPac

 

[JoshNurse]

If I go with the dragonfly do you know a good quality windows equalizer I can use for bass, treble etc..?

 

[olegausany]

Get Foobar but use Graphic Equalizer plug-in instead of built-in one

 

[JoshNurse]

Quote:

Get Foobar but use Graphic Equalizer plug-in instead of built-in one

Thanks!
 
I will get the dragon fly and I have a good idea but not sure if I should do it.  I recently bought an ultrabook.
 
My plan is to open up the dragon fly and my ultrabook. I plan to use one of the usbs to connect the dragon fly from inside the ultrabook. As for the led lighting on the dragonfly device I will find a way to connect it to the keyboard led-black lighting.
 
Should I do this?  I know I can do it but not sure if it is a good idea.  That way there is no usb to use.  I will use a 2usb out so one is used for the dragon fly and i will still be able to use the one in the laptop.

 

[olegausany]

Any laptop should have at least 2 usb ports so you can use one for DragonFly and second for anything else

 

[Lord Voldemort]

Quote:

Thanks!
 
I will get the dragon fly and I have a good idea but not sure if I should do it.  I recently bought an ultrabook.
 
My plan is to open up the dragon fly and my ultrabook. I plan to use one of the usbs to connect the dragon fly from inside the ultrabook. As for the led lighting on the dragonfly device I will find a way to connect it to the keyboard led-black lighting.
 
Should I do this?  I know I can do it but not sure if it is a good idea.  That way there is no usb to use.  I will use a 2usb out so one is used for the dragon fly and i will still be able to use the one in the laptop.

DAC wise, you should not be able to tell the difference. The Dragonfly is convenient in that you don't need a USB cable. If you find that feature useful, go for it. Amp wise, not sure which puts out more power but FiiO E17 is plenty for even 300 ohm headphones. Even 600 ohm headphones drive to large volumes, though it's questionable whether it puts out enough voltage for those. The thing about the Dragonfly is that it's easy to lose when you carry it outside, and the FiiO E17 has stronger build quality, as well as more functions. 

 

[olegausany]

Quote:

DAC wise, you should not be able to tell the difference. The Dragonfly is convenient in that you don't need a USB cable. If you find that feature useful, go for it. Amp wise, not sure which puts out more power but FiiO E17 is plenty for even 300 ohm headphones. Even 600 ohm headphones drive to large volumes, though it's questionable whether it puts out enough voltage for those. The thing about the Dragonfly is that it's easy to lose when you carry it outside, and the FiiO E17 has stronger build quality, as well as more functions. 

If you never heard DragonFly and/or compared it to E17 don't comment. I compared them side by side and can repeat again that DragonFly sound way better plus you also can use it as DAC only and add an AMP of your choice when budget permits as I did by adding Asgard. E17 is worth only if the following is true 1. I need an AMP for portable outdoor use but I need DAC/AMP in one for my computer. 2. When used with computer for music listening the player in use has no or has crappy EQ an doesn't allow to use third party plug-in EQ so I will use tone controls built-in into E17 

 

[Lord Voldemort]

Quote:

If you never heard DragonFly and/or compared it to E17 don't comment. I compared them side by side and can repeat again that DragonFly sound way better plus you also can use it as DAC only and add an AMP of your choice when budget permits as I did by adding Asgard. E17 is worth only if the following is true 1. I need an AMP for portable outdoor use but I need DAC/AMP in one for my computer. 2. When used with computer for music listening the player in use has no or has crappy EQ an doesn't allow to use third party plug-in EQ so I will use tone controls built-in into E17 

Most sound differences people hear are due to expectation/ confirmation bias. Double blind test proves this. The E17 has a very good DAC in it, and most people under testing conditions won't even be able to tell the differences with higher priced DACs. Your comment about "sound way better"... you think you can reproduce the same comment under a blind test? Not to mention "better" can't always be objectively defined. At most, there will be a very subtle difference. Amp wise, that's a different story. The DragonFly from what I know inputs more power than the E17 and should power voltage-hungry headphones better. 

 

[olegausany]

Most sound differences people hear are due to expectation/ confirmation bias. Double blind test proves this. The E17 has a very good DAC in it, and most people under testing conditions won't even be able to tell the differences with higher priced DACs. Your comment about "sound way better"... you think you can reproduce the same comment under a blind test? Not to mention "better" can't always be objectively defined. At most, there will be a very subtle difference. Amp wise, that's a different story. The DragonFly from what I know inputs more power than the E17 and should power voltage-hungry headphones better. 

what expectations you talking about? I never heard how it sounds before I got it so i didn't know what to expect but it sounds for me way better than E17. I never heard Arcam rPac either but knowing how good and expensive gear they make i was expecting rPac to sound at least as good or better than DragonFly but usually I never make any opinions until I hear something myself

 

[Lord Voldemort]

Quote:

what expectations you talking about? I never heard how it sounds before I got it so i didn't know what to expect but it sounds for me way better than E17. I never heard Arcam rPac either but knowing how good and expensive gear they make i was expecting rPac to sound at least as good or better than DragonFly but usually I never make any opinions until I hear something myself

"but knowing how good and expensive gear they make" would be an example of expectation bias. In the audio world, price heavily correlates with performance in the listener's mind. 
 
http://gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger
 
Humans often underestimate or remain ignorant of how powerful bias is. Take for instance, a test involving a 100 dollar wine and a 1000 dollar wine. If the subject knows the price beforehand, obviously there will be a stronger preference for the 1000 dollar wine. But double blind tests have actually showed a stronger preference for cheaper wine. In the audio world, the phenomenon is similar. The differences that we often here are often not there... it's just our minds playing tricks on us. Same concept as hallucinations, in a way. 

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

"but knowing how good and expensive gear they make" would be an example of expectation bias. In the audio world, price heavily correlates with performance in the listener's mind. 
 
http://gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger
 
Humans often underestimate or remain ignorant of how powerful bias is. Take for instance, a test involving a 100 dollar wine and a 1000 dollar wine. If the subject knows the price beforehand, obviously there will be a stronger preference for the 1000 dollar wine. But double blind tests have actually showed a stronger preference for cheaper wine. In the audio world, the phenomenon is similar. The differences that we often here are often not there... it's just our minds playing tricks on us. Same concept as hallucinations, in a way. 

Indeed. Imo, the point about expectation bias can't be emphasized enough. Everyone should google it if they don't know what it is. Not just price, but reading a review from respected reviewer that's overflowing with superlatives can also cause the mind to hear differences which would't be heard in blind testing. The fashion industry exploits this kind of bias all the time to make huge profits off a designer's name. It's got to the point that the name/label is more important than the garment itself!  And don't forget the importance of volume matching. Not sure if any careful comparisons of the DAC's in question has been done. I'd like to know myself since i was considering the e17 but might go for something else if it was *noticeably* better.

 

[Lord Voldemort]

Quote:

Indeed. Imo, the point about expectation bias can't be emphasized enough. Everyone should google it if they don't know what it is. Not just price, but reading a review from respected reviewer that's overflowing with superlatives can also cause the mind to hear differences which would't be heard in blind testing. The fashion industry exploits this kind of bias all the time to make huge profits off a designer's name. It's got to the point that the name/label is more important than the garment itself!  And don't forget the importance of volume matching. Not sure if any careful comparisons of the DAC's in question has been done. I'd like to know myself since i was considering the e17 but might go for something else if it was *noticeably* better.

Yes volume matching is a huge component and people who don't do it correctly cannot be taken seriously, even under a legitimate double blind test. The name/ label is always a huge component...
 
I doubt the E17 would have a noticeably worse DAC than either something like the ODAC or the HRT Streamer ii. People claim to hear "huge" differences but can't even come close to reproducing the same degree of differences under a double blind test. Measurement wise, of course the E17 should lose. The question is, are the differences audible enough to the human ear? And if they are, are they worth the money that could be better spent on trying a different headphone? 

 

[olegausany]

I never read any reviews about DragonFly before I got it but read a lot about E17 and I never heard about AudioQuest making audio gear, I only know they doing cables. I never said there is day and night difference between DragonFly and E17 but it really noticeable, also DragonFly/Asgard combo makes it better. I always prefer to trust my own ears to any review

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

I never read any reviews about DragonFly before I got it but read a lot about E17 and I never heard about AudioQuest making audio gear, I only know they doing cables. I never said there is day and night difference between DragonFly and E17 but it really noticeable, also DragonFly/Asgard combo makes it better. I always prefer to trust my own ears to any review

Not doubting you, but what motivated you to purchase the DragonFly if you never read any reviews? You never read the big thread here on head-fi? What about price? There's a huge difference between that one and the e17, so perhaps you were *expecting* to hear an improvement.Unfortunately our "ears" are influenced by the content of our minds(subconscious as well as conscious), whether we're aware of it or not. It's the way we're 'wired' and no one's immune to it..