AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[ginetto61]

  Yes you are right  - LAN ethernet AOIP is inherently superior due to it's native galvanic isolation, and electrical structure (no 5VDC power running along with the data stream). 
Remember USB UAC was a work around and was never even accepted by Microsoft - without support even in WIN10.  From what I have read they just did not like the violation of the original USB protocol. Why MS has chosen to ignore UAC is a mystery to me.  But they certainly embrace ethernet IP.
Now there have been proprietary ethernet CAT5 solutions for Computer audio for over a decade - but not necessarily LAN compatible or IP based.  So this is really a major change in the computer audio landscape. 
I have a PCIe EMU1616M that is very good and uses CAT5 - so we have come full circle.  The difference now is the holy grail of an emerging common communications std for AOIP. 
This now provides the guideposts for equipment manufacturers to design around - to build a truly accepted audio standard like SPDIF and USB - so establishing AOIP as the next evolutionary step in high end computer audio.
And for us audiophiles - without the need to have a shared master clock timing many devices on a LAN - even better.  As the clock can be in the interface and usually easily supplemented with a better ext word clock.

 
Hi and thanks a lot again for the very valuable advice.
So in the end we just need some good bridging units like pcie adapters and ethernet to spdif converter ?
This way we could feed and keep our old and loving dacs with these interfaces with excellent results in terms of sound.
I wonder if are they really so difficult to design and build.  Is this so difficult from a technical point of view ? 
Thanks a alot again,  gino 

 

[rb2013]

   
Hi and thanks a lot again for the very valuable advice.
So in the end we just need some good bridging units like pcie adapters and ethernet to spdif converter ? are they really so difficult to design and build ?  
This way we could feed our old and loving dacs with these interfaces for excellent results. 
Is this so difficult from a technical point of view ? i do not think so. 
Thanks a alot again,  gino 

Don't even need the PCIe card.  The PC already has a ethernet connection right there.  Remember we are no longer worried about galvanic isolation, dirty PC ground contamination, +5VDC power running along side the data, impedance mis-match reflections, lost USB packets, packet noise, AGC PS contamination, and the list goes on...
 
And the best news!  It's here right now!
 
Simple chain: PC>REDNET3>DAC
 
No need for Intona's, Regen's, Recovery's, Ipurifier2's, iUSB 3.0's, Wyrd's, expensive USB cables, Jitterbugs, Paul Pang PCIe USB cards, JCAT Cards and Cables, Sotm Cards, ICRON GB LAN USB Isolation, PS Audio LANRovers, etc...
 
Not sure if a LPS for the PC would even matter anymore.
 
The one add on to the RD3 might be a better ext clock - I will have an answer to that question next week.
 
Got to love that!

 

[ginetto61]

   Don't even need the PCIe card.  The PC already has a ethernet connection right there.  Remember we are no longer worried about galvanic isolation, dirty PC ground contamination, +5VDC power running along side the data, impedance mis-match reflections, lost USB packets, packet noise, AGC PS contamination, and the list goes on...
And the best news!  It's here right now!
Simple chain: PC>REDNET3>DAC

 
Hi ! and thanks again ! 
This is impressive ... i see spdif and optical in/out.   It is a little too much for me.  I would wait for a 2 channel and simpler unit ... maybe with AES/EBU also ?
 

 No need for Intona's, Regen's, Recovery's, Ipurifier2's, iUSB 3.0's, Wyrd's, expensive USB cables, Jitterbugs, Paul Pang PCIe USB cards, JCAT Cards and Cables, Sotm Cards, and cables, etc...Not sure if a LPS for the PC would even matter anymore.   The one add on to the RD3 might be a better ext clock -

 
i am not an expert but i do not think so.  The one in the RD3 for sure given that it sets the clock.   And i guess the one in the RD3 will be quite high quality 
 

  I will have an answer to that question next week.
Got to love that!
 

 

 
 
I will read your review with the biggest interest.  I just hope that something more basic will appear.
If the technology is intrinsically superior this should show also with lower quality units. 
Please keep us updated.   You are a great reference for all of us.
Thanks a lot sincerely. 
Kind regards,  gino 

 

[rb2013]

   
Hi ! and thanks again ! 
This is impressive ... i see spdif and optical in/out.   It is a little too much for me.  I would wait for a 2 channel and simpler unit ... maybe with AES/EBU also ?
 
 
I will read your review with the biggest interest.  I just hope that something more basic will appear.
If the technology is intrinsically superior this should show also with lower quality units. 
Please keep us updated.   You are a great reference for all of us.
Thanks a lot sincerely. 
Kind regards,  gino 

It has AES on a breakout cable.  But you are right it has many features we don't need.

 

[ginetto61]

   I had AES on a breakout cable.  But you are right it has many features we don't need.

 
I asked about the AES because my last buy has been a Gustard x20 that has this input
and i would like to stick with both (i.e. AES/EBU and Gustard) after the positive opinions i have read. 
Thanks a lot again,  gino 

 

[Superdad]

  Now Focusrite is the leader in a reasonable cost AES67 compliant AOIP solution available right this minute (in fact have one coming next week) so this is not pie in the sky vaporware.  

 
 
Please reread my post.  Focusrite uses Dante exclusively, and Audinate (Dante) has still not delivered on its promise to embrace AES67.
And this is not just a matter of semantics--we are talking about software and interoperability.  You can not use the Audinate Dante Virtual Sound card s/w with an AES67 system, nor will Merging's EAS67/Ravenna virtual drivers work with and Focusrite/Dante products.
 
So at present, aside from being on Ethernet, these few products are not ushering in any sea change in the industry.  The are proprietary, NOT yet open.  And their clocking schemes and Ethernet switch requirements are a nightmare.  Might as well go with some other proprietary yet simpler and more elegant Ethernet audio scheme such as Roon's RAAT or Signalyst's NAA. 
 

  Well everyone is still waiting on Dante to fulfill their 2014 promise to support AES67, but AFAIK it still has not happened.  No AES67/Ravenna hardware at all from Dante.
And the Focusrite RedNet boxes are also all still only Dante.  So while the $29 Dante DVS may seem like a deal (though it works through lots of IP stack layers so SQ is not assured), it is still a closed system.  Heck, the Ravenna Network site (http://www.ravenna-network.com/partners/) does not even list Dante or Focusrite as partners.

 

[rb2013]

   
 
Please reread my post.  Focusrite uses Dante exclusively, and Audinate (Dante) has still not delivered on its promise to embrace AES67.
And this is not just a matter of semantics--we are talking about software and interoperability.  You can not use the Audinate Dante Virtual Sound card s/w with an AES67 system, nor will Merging's EAS67/Ravenna virtual drivers work with and Focusrite/Dante products.
 
So at present, aside from being on Ethernet, these few products are not ushering in any sea change in the industry.  The are proprietary, NOT yet open.  And their clocking schemes and Ethernet switch requirements are a nightmare.  Might as well go with some other proprietary yet simpler and more elegant Ethernet audio scheme such as Roon's RAAT or Signalyst's NAA. 
 

Re-read my post.  Audinate announced not long ago AES67 adoption - patience it will come.  Did USB 1.0 give us Hi Res Audio?
 
Anyway DANTE works great on a LAN for PC to DAC purposes - even over GB switches (see the DANTE Control software) - with latencies as low as 250us.  Their 'safe' setting is 5ms  pretty good.
 
Who cares if Ravenna h/w doesn't work on Dante yet - why would you?  You really don't get it do you?
Dante and Ravenna are developing past the current common AES67 std - that's a good thing.  Then AES67 can move along with them - maybe AES77.  Sorry but this will become a juggernaut in time.  For both us audiophiles and the Pro audio folks.
 
I don't see you critize every XMOS USB DDc for not working with ANY Thesycon Win driver. 
 
You have completely missed the point your Regen and collaboration on the DNLA/UpNP may be some what mute going forward as this new std charges forward.
 

 Might as well go with some other proprietary yet simpler and more elegant Ethernet audio scheme such as Roon's RAAT or Signalyst's NAA.

Well now you're just contradicting yourself - see your numerous posts critizing DNLA/UpNP...for, guess what, not allowing the user to pick the player.
 
And that is the very heart of the DANTE/Ravenna strength  - either of them allow a simple and cheap (non-h/w) solution to plug and play computer audio - using your favorite open player.
You knew it before - but seemed to somehow have forgotten your previous stance - proprietary schemes like NAA and HQPlayer are dead men walking - at best a small niche.
 
And Roon RATT is just Airplay with a pretty new face - old stuff.  Anwyay mulitchannel is dead in the audiophile community - even with the monster ad sending over the years.  I don't know one audiophile using mulichannel - other then for HT.  More USB??
 
Anyway - more DNLA/UpNP complications???

Strange RAAT? behavior

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/strange-raat-behavior/7402

 

[Superdad]

Audinate announced not long ago AES67 adoption - patience it will come.   
…..
 
You have completely missed the point your Regen and collaboration on the DNLA/UpNP may be some what mute going forward as this new std charges forward.
 
Well now you're just contradicting yourself - see your numerous posts critizing DNLA/UpNP...for, guess what, not allowing the user to pick the player.
 
... Anwyay mulitchannel is dead in the audiophile community - even with the monster ad sending over the years.  I don't know one audiophile using mulichannel - other then for HT.  More USB??
 

 
I like you Rob, and I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat or raise any blood pressure.  But you are loosing me here.  You said:
 
"Now Focusrite is the leader in a reasonable cost AES67 compliant AOIP solution available right this minute (in fact have one coming next week) so this is not pie in the sky vaporware."  
 
Yet now you say Audinate announced AES67 adoption "not long ago" (it was 2013-'14 BTW) and to be patient.  Which is it?
 
And sorry, but I have no idea the meaning of the sentence "You have completely missed the point your Regen and collaboration on the DNLA/UpNP may be some what mute going forward as this new std charges forward."
 
And please tell me how multichannel entered the conversation.
---------
 
I really think you are misinterpreting my comments and position.  (Though I won't claim that I never contradict myself.)  
First off, the REGEN has nothing to do with any of this, unless you making the specious argument that I am trying to defend USB so I can sell more REGENs.  Trust me, if money was my motivation I would not be spending time on forums debating the future of audio interfaces.
 
And I don't have any idea of what you mean by "collaboration on the DLNA/UPnP".  I am not a fan of DLNA/UPnP in the least.
But I am also clear-eyed about what is and is not happening with Ethernet audio solutions, and despite a smattering of mostly closed solutions--some of which claim to be open (looking at Merging NADAC)--we just are not there yet.
 
When ALC NetworX or COVELOZ start selling modules with development kits AND offer free user licensing of virtual sound card s/w for Linux/Windows/OS X, then we will begin to turn the corner.
 
Funny that you are disparaging ROON, when they are singlehandedly doing more to bring consumer audio manufacturers into Ethernet--in just a year's time--than ANY of the AES67 and AVB players have in the half decade.  Don't believe me?  Take a look at the ROON partners list: https://roonlabs.com/partners.html 
 
Cheers,
--Alex C.

 

[rb2013]

   
I like you Rob, and I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat or raise any blood pressure.  But you are loosing me here.  You said:
 
"Now Focusrite is the leader in a reasonable cost AES67 compliant AOIP solution available right this minute (in fact have one coming next week) so this is not pie in the sky vaporware."  
 
Yet now you say Audinate announced AES67 adoption "not long ago" (it was 2013-'14 BTW) and to be patient.  Which is it?
 
And sorry, but I have no idea the meaning of the sentence "You have completely missed the point your Regen and collaboration on the DNLA/UpNP may be some what mute going forward as this new std charges forward."
 
And please tell me how multichannel entered the conversation.
---------
 
I really think you are misinterpreting my comments and position.  (Though I won't claim that I never contradict myself.)  
First off, the REGEN has nothing to do with any of this, unless you making the specious argument that I am trying to defend USB so I can sell more REGENs.  Trust me, if money was my motivation I would not be spending time on forums debating the future of audio interfaces.
 
And I don't have any idea of what you mean by "collaboration on the DLNA/UPnP".  I am not a fan of DLNA/UPnP in the least.
But I am also clear-eyed about what is and is not happening with Ethernet audio solutions, and despite a smattering of mostly closed solutions--some of which claim to be open (looking at Merging NADAC)--we just are not there yet.
 
When ALC NetworX or COVELOZ start selling modules with development kits AND offer free user licensing of virtual sound card s/w for Linux/Windows/OS X, then we will begin to turn the corner.
 
Funny that you are disparaging ROON, when they are singlehandedly doing more to bring consumer audio manufacturers into Ethernet--in just a year's time--than ANY of the AES67 and AVB players have in the half decade.  Don't believe me?  Take a look at the ROON partners list: https://roonlabs.com/partners.html 
 
Cheers,
--Alex C.

Hi Alex,
 
You know I like you too.  And do enjoy our conversations and debates (not arguments in a long shot), I do call things as I see them.  And I value and respect your opinion - man in 2014 it sounded like you guys were about to light the world on fire with the AOIP interface you were working on - (and I hope still are!).  No worries on raising my blood pressure - the fact I'm a fitness nut - it's way below normal. 

  I'm just one of those uber high energy guys - have you noticed?

 
But a few things you have said - I have taken at face value.  Like the incompatiblity between DANTE and Ravenna - now for the third time I will say  - they are different protocols - but they now share a common interoperability - ASE67.  Interoperability is the key word.  But they don't have to for us 2 channel audio guys - unlike the studio installs.  So I say again for us as computer audiophiles - who cares?  But I will humor you... and for the sake of the multi-device studio guys.
 
Here is the Raveena release on 'Welcoming' DANTE to AES67:
http://www.ravenna-network.com/2015/10/14/ravenna-welcomes-dante-to-the-aes67-standard/
 
Oct
2015

RAVENNA WELCOMES DANTE TO THE AES67 STANDARD

News
With the announcement that Audinate has now delivered their AES67-enabled firmware to their OEM partners in order to offer AES67 compatibility with their Dante-based products, the RAVENNA community welcomes them to the world of interoperability.

  Dude this was a few months ago!  How do you know they this is not effective now?  Do you own a Raveena HAPI or NADAC and tried it with DANTE gear?  DANTE DVS?  But again - NADAC coes with it's own ASE67 Raveena drivers - so why use it with DANTE DVS?  But again to your point of contention here is the Raveena folks direct quote:

Andreas Hildebrand from ALC NetworX, developers of RAVENNA, states, “This is great news for end users, who can now interconnect audio devices using RAVENNA, Q-Lan, Livewire and finally Dante, based on the AES67 interoperability standard which we helped create 2 years ago.”
 
“We always intended that many different protocols should provide AES67 compatibility in order to offer the system designer and/or end-user as wide a choice as possible,” continued Hildebrand. “Audinate offers their paid-for solution and we offer ours freely, but users may now benefit from using both protocols - and indeed all other AES67-compatible protocols - in the same installation.”
 
AES67 as a standard allows different audio protocols to talk to each other; however, manufacturers who want to enjoy the interoperability of AES67 need to choose a protocol suite that is AES67-compliant to fit into their products.
 
Having been AES67-compatible from the moment the standard was launched, RAVENNA has the most experience in working with AES67 having implemented it in many complex and demanding broadcast set ups. 
 
Currently the most powerful protocol on the market as it was initially designed to meet the exacting requirements of the broadcast world where it is still the protocol of choice, RAVENNA is also one of the most versatile. What can do more can do less, and RAVENNA is completely scalable from the largest broadcast complex right down to the smallest input connection.

 

 
OK now to your involvement with Sonore and the Micro-Rendu - I thought this was a DNLA/UpNP device?  Am I wrong?  And one that needs USB to work with a WIN PC - no?  I thought Uptone was part of incorporating the Regen into the Micro-Rendu.  Sorry if I'm mistaken  - I will try and find your direct posts to this effect.
 
Next on to ROON RATT - not interested in an album art driven player - it is just too cumbersome for the size of my music collection.  I do not trust 'meta data' driven players - it looks real pretty - but beyond approx 50 albums - it is cumbersome for me.  Just my Classic Rock Foobar playlist had 529 albums.  I love the ability to have these presented in an alphabetical listing and any album easily found in seconds.
 
This for me is way more organized (if not as pretty  - but then iTunes is pretty too):


 then this:

 

Then have to pay $500 for it (or $120/yr).  This is almost what I paid for the REDNET3! How many folks do you really think will pay $500 for a s/w player?
 
 
I'm sure some folks will love Roon - not for me.  But to use RATT you must pay for Roon, as I understand it.  Like the HQPlayer business model - forcing you to buy NAA.  Then being stuck there.
 
And that is the point  - not to be tied down to any one player - a complete open std.
 
So you say: "..despite a smattering of mostly closed solutions--some of which claim to be open (looking at Merging NADAC)--we just are not there yet."
 
Yet DANTE and Raveena are open - open to all ASIO compatible players - this what matters!  The exact point you made repeatedly in 2014.
Now you claim the the best is a closed propietary $500 player solution - with only one choice - pay $500 or $119 for the rest of your life - ROON.
 
Unbelievable!
 
That is what DANTE and Ravenna is - USB without all the warts and hiccups...I can use Foobar now or another player - maybe some killer free player like Foobar down the road - FOR FREE!  On as many machines as I choose...free.  Or if someone chooses to pay for JRiver Media 21 for their WIN PC - it's $49 for a lifetime license.  Anyway the choice is the users.  That's what I call 'open'.
 
 
Cheers!
Mate

 

[Superdad]

Somehow I ended up replying--possibly in a more clear way than before--about the challenges in this Ethernet matter over at Rob's other thread.  Those of you interested can pick up on our recent friendly back and forth beginning with this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2025#post_12617288
 

 

[rb2013]

  Somehow I ended up replying--possibly in a more clear way than before--about the challenges in this Ethernet matter over at Rob's other thread.  Those of you interested can pick up on our recent friendly back and forth beginning with this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2025#post_12617288
 

Yes - seems that is the most popular forum.  Alex's thanks for your knowledge, experience and input - highly valued!
 
Cheers
Mate

 

[mourip]

I got back this reply from Focusrite....
 
 
"Thanks for taking the time to contact Focusrite regarding the use of Dante, AES67 and Focusrite products in the audiophile market. While it is not a core market for Focusrite at present, it has been interesting to see adoption within proximate markets of products that we ultimately designed for the recording studio, broadcast and live sound markets.
 
While I can’t comment directly on our future product roadmap, your suggestion of a single AES3 / S/PDIF box is one of interest which I will certainly research.
 
Finally, in my capacity as Marketing Workgroup Chairman for the Media Networking Alliance (a not for profit organisation that promotes AES67 adoption), it is great to see adoption in the audiophile market of audio over IP. I’m confident that it is the future of all audio transport, and will have a part to play in domestic settings too. I firmly believe that there will be more products from various manufacturers over the coming years that will be of interest to you.
 
Best wishes,
 
Will
 
Will Hoult  //  Product Manager: Professional and Commercial Audio"

 

[rb2013]

  I got back this reply from Focusrite....
 
 
"Thanks for taking the time to contact Focusrite regarding the use of Dante, AES67 and Focusrite products in the audiophile market. While it is not a core market for Focusrite at present, it has been interesting to see adoption within proximate markets of products that we ultimately designed for the recording studio, broadcast and live sound markets.
 
While I can’t comment directly on our future product roadmap, your suggestion of a single AES3 / S/PDIF box is one of interest which I will certainly research.
 
Finally, in my capacity as Marketing Workgroup Chairman for the Media Networking Alliance (a not for profit organisation that promotes AES67 adoption), it is great to see adoption in the audiophile market of audio over IP. I’m confident that it is the future of all audio transport, and will have a part to play in domestic settings too. I firmly believe that there will be more products from various manufacturers over the coming years that will be of interest to you.
 
Best wishes,
 
Will
 
Will Hoult  //  Product Manager: Professional and Commercial Audio"

Cool!  I hope sooner rather then later!
 
I love that we audiophiles at the grass roots can push the market - hopefully to all our benefits.
 
What all this is about (blogging).
Cheers
 
PS you might suggest a minor tweek to their AM2 - add a spdif out and increase the data rate to 192k.  Done.

 

[rb2013]

Ok just hooked up the REDNET 3 - and all I can say is...Holy Cow!! This is just unbelievable!   The sound is just at a whole other level.  Not incremental - a seachange in SQ.
 
Warm, sweet, ease, but the detail - mama mia.  Details, detail and transparency like I have never heard before. 
 
I'm floored - thinking this box has been out there for a couple of years.
 
And this is cold out of the box, stock CAT5 cable, NO Mutec yet.
 
All I can say is King USB is DEAD - long live KING AOIP!

 

[mhamel]

  Ok just hooked up the REDNET 3 - and all I can say is...Holy Cow!! This is just unbelievable!   The sound is just at a whole other level.  Not incremental - a seachange in SQ.
 
Warm, sweet, ease, but the detail - mama mia.  Details, detail and transparency like I have never heard before. 
 
I'm floored - thinking this box has been out there for a couple of years.
 
And this is cold out of the box, stock CAT5 cable, NO Mutec yet.
 
All I can say is King USB is DEAD - long live KING AOIP!

 
My only real response to this is... Yep.  
 
I won't go back to USB after having the D16 here the past month, even though the last thing I wanted to do was spend $1500 on a connection to the DAC.