AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio
May 28, 2016 at 9:13 AM Post #31 of 3,693

mourip

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Ok. This thread should be on flame. This is the future of audio. The New Age.
 
Here is a good example of a fledgling product with remarkable potential.
 
 
It is a Dante based ethernet input DAC/HP amp/Pre. I have no idea how it sounds but it represents what could be in a similar higher end audiophile oriented product. Imagine Schitt incorporating the ethernet input into a DAC/HP amp?
 
Ethernet in from a central PC or NAS with Dante driver and use this anywhere.
 
 
 

 
https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-am2
 
May 28, 2016 at 9:42 AM Post #32 of 3,693

ginetto61

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Ok. This thread should be on flame. This is the future of audio. The New Age...  

 
Hi !  i was thinking exactly the same.  Strangely enough there is a big silence about this technology,  
Maybe too good that it could made obsolete usb and even thunderbolt ?  
Personally i would like a Ethernet to AES/EBU in/out interface immensely.  
If you know of any review please post.  
Kind regards,  gino
 
May 28, 2016 at 9:54 AM Post #33 of 3,693
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  Ok. This thread should be on flame. This is the future of audio. The New Age.
 
Here is a good example of a fledgling product with remarkable potential.
 
 
It is a Dante based ethernet input DAC/HP amp/Pre. I have no idea how it sounds but it represents what could be in a similar higher end audiophile oriented product. Imagine Schitt incorporating the ethernet input into a DAC/HP amp?
 
Ethernet in from a central PC or NAS with Dante driver and use this anywhere.
 
 
 

 
https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-am2

This is unfortunately limited to HP analog out only.  What will come and is needed is a 2 channel SPDIF coax REDNET AES67 Ethernet box.
 
   
Hi !  i was thinking exactly the same.  Strangely enough there is a big silence about this technology,  
Maybe too good that it could made obsolete usb and even thunderbolt ?  
Personally i would like a Ethernet to AES/EBU in/out interface immensely.  
If you know of any review please post.  
Kind regards,  gino

AOIP is fairly new and ProAudio only right now.  But that will change with the advent of the inexpensive ($29) Dante DVS for Windows and now the AES67 compatibility.
 
May 28, 2016 at 9:55 AM Post #34 of 3,693
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I have a REDNET 3 coming next week to face off against the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB and my Uber F-1 USB based chain.
 
So we will see very soon.
popcorn.gif

 
May 28, 2016 at 10:20 AM Post #36 of 3,693

ginetto61

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   This is unfortunately limited to HP analog out only.  What will come and is needed is a 2 channel SPDIF coax REDNET AES67 Ethernet box.
AOIP is fairly new and ProAudio only right now. 
But that will change with the advent of the inexpensive ($29) Dante DVS for Windows and now the AES67 compatibility.

 
Hi ! thanks a lot indeed for the very kind and valuable advice.
I think i have found the link to the SW you mention.
 
https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard
 
 Dante Virtual Soundcard uses the Ethernet port you already have—no snakes, no converters, no special cables and connectors*, no external devices—none of that.

this sounds great !!!!!!!!!!  
beerchug.gif

 
However still some kind of ethernet to something else converter is needed, i guess.   A piece of nice HW i mean.  
Personally i would vote for a Ethernet to AES/EBU interface, possibly with in and out.
That would be fantastic.  
Thanks a lot again,  gino   
normal_smile .gif
 
 
May 28, 2016 at 10:47 AM Post #37 of 3,693

prot

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Ok. This thread should be on flame. This is the future of audio. The New Age.

You are giving waaay too much credit to audiophiles .. and people in general :D

Been singing that 'network future of audio" song for 5+ years already. But most people just buy the same old bull that everyone else buys and shamelessly advertises as 'the new wow'.
 
May 28, 2016 at 10:04 PM Post #38 of 3,693

Superdad

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  This is unfortunately limited to HP analog out only.  What will come and is needed is a 2 channel SPDIF coax REDNET AES67 Ethernet box.
 
AOIP is fairly new and ProAudio only right now.  But that will change with the advent of the inexpensive ($29) Dante DVS for Windows and now the AES67 compatibility.

 
 
Well everyone is still waiting on Dante to fulfill their 2014 promise to support AES67, but AFAIK it still has not happened.  No AES67/Ravenna hardware at all from Dante.
And the Focusrite RedNet boxes are also all still only Dante.  So while the $29 Dante DVS may seem like a deal (though it works through lots of IP stack layers so SQ is not assured), it is still a closed system.  Heck, the Ravenna Network site (http://www.ravenna-network.com/partners/) does not even list Dante or Focusrite as partners.
 
May 29, 2016 at 12:35 AM Post #39 of 3,693
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Well everyone is still waiting on Dante to fulfill their 2014 promise to support AES67, but AFAIK it still has not happened.  No AES67/Ravenna hardware at all from Dante.
And the Focusrite RedNet boxes are also all still only Dante.  So while the $29 Dante DVS may seem like a deal (though it works through lots of IP stack layers so SQ is not assured), it is still a closed system.  Heck, the Ravenna Network site (http://www.ravenna-network.com/partners/) does not even list Dante or Focusrite as partners.


Well the way I understand it is that Dante and Ravenna are separate protocols - with similar TCP/IP lineage.  The agreement of AES67, which is very recent,  is to allow a commonality across these two protocols.  In essence an agreement to abide by a common set of layer 3 attributes, that will allow each others systems to be recognized over a common LAN without the need for special QoS GB swtiches, as is the case for layer 2 AVB (still awaiting the IEEE official std as far as I know).
 
The formal agreement by Audinate to support AES67, the creator of Dante (Focusrite is just and adopter), is only a little over a two years old.  This AES67 agreement  standard (only a little over three yrs old) guarantees interoperability across platforms.  The Media Networking Alliance was formed in October 2014 to promote adoption of AES67.  So we are talking sota, cutting edge AOIP developments.
https://www.audinate.com/article/audinate-announces-support-aes67-standard
 
The big news was by AES of the twp successful AES67 AOIP "Plugfest" Events.  Showing the adpotion and implementation of AES67 has already been a success. http://www.aes.org/press/?ID=341
 
So the fact that Dante is not a partner or Focusrite is completely logical as they are separate development protocols merging into a common set of interoperability standard.
Those AES67 standards are just a minimum set of critera interoperability standards - companies are free to exceed them within their own protocols. 
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67
AES67 is a standard for audio-over-IP interoperability. The standard was developed by the Audio Engineering Society and published in September 2013. It is a layer 3 protocol suite based on existing standards and is designed to allow interoperability between various IP-based audio networking systems such as RAVENNA, Livewire, Q-LAN and Dante. It also identifies commonalities with Audio Video Bridging (AVB) and documents AVB interoperability scenarios.[2][3]

AES67 promises interoperability between previously competing audio-over-IP systems[4] and long-term network interoperation between systems.[5] Since its publication, AES67 has been implemented independently by several manufacturers and adopted by many others.

 
Of course for the audiophile AES67 interoperability is less important then a studio - what is more important is the benefits of a robust, growing and improving AOIP computer audio architecture.  With it's inherent simplicity and galvanic isolation.  We see this already in the ProAudio market with Audinate offering it's DVS (Digital Virtual Soundcard) s/w for $29 for a permanent license.  This allows the audiophile the ability to now choose any player they wish whether it be Foobar, JRiver, XXPLayer, etc..  Of course players like HQPlayer tied to a propreitary implementation would not, unless 'opened' by it creator.  So the electrical disadvantages of USB and be leap frogged, as well as the narrow list of players and difficulty of solid implementation of DNLA/UpNP (as you yourself have so neatly spoken about).
 
The big news with AES67 is the spurring on of new computer audio products for both the pro audio, prosumer and audiophile markets.  I'm sure we will see many AoIP inexpensive devices coming soon to the market.
 
For me it's much about the SQ and coming next week., will be able to hear first hand how good the SQ is.  But the initial reports from a few folks with the REDNET boxes is very, very encouraging.
 
Exciting times in computer audio!
 
May 29, 2016 at 3:00 AM Post #40 of 3,693

Superdad

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Well the way I understand it is that Dante and Ravenna are separate protocols - with similar TCP/IP lineage.  The agreement of AES67, which is very recent,  is to allow a commonality across these two protocols.  In essence an agreement to abide by a common set of layer 3 attributes, that will allow each others systems to be recognized over a common LAN without the need for special QoS GB swtiches, as is the case for layer 2 AVB (still awaiting the IEEE official std as far as I know).

The formal agreement by Audinate to support AES67, the creator of Dante (Focusrite is just and adopter), is only a little over a two years old.  This AES67 agreement  standard (only a little over three yrs old) guarantees interoperability across platforms.  The Media Networking Alliance was formed in October 2014 to promote adoption of AES67.  So we are talking sota, cutting edge AOIP developments.

.....


Well I've been following AOIP, the companies, and their various protocols and hardware for close to 8 years, and the coming wave is has always been just around the corner. :wink:. So forgive me if I am still a bit skeptical about this year. AES67, hailed as the "open standard" uniter, has yet produce hardware or software tools and modules that independent, non-pro-sound DAC developers can readily license and utilize. That's why you still don't see many Ethernet DACs or converters with non-DLNA AOIP.

We aren't there yet and 2016 isn't going to be the year!
 
May 29, 2016 at 3:09 AM Post #41 of 3,693

ginetto61

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Hi Guys !
thanks a lot for the very interesting information and valuable advice.
I have a very uneducated question:
 
can we say that ethernet is intrinsically a much better way (i.e. more reliable) to tranfers digital files than usb ?
 
I think that ethernet is the key point.
Probably if they have used it from the beginning to connect pc and audio peripherals we all have now much better sound ?
Ravenna or not ?
When i see guys here with even 6-7 devices plus cables to realize a decent usb connection between the pc and the dac my feeling is very bad about usb connection.  Very bad.
Clearly there is some issues with usb.
This is ridiculous.
Hope they will fix it soon.
From my point of view a pcie adapter and a very good ethernet to aes/ebu (or spdif)  interface could solve everything.
I am praying for that actually.
Thanks a lot,  gino
 
May 29, 2016 at 7:17 AM Post #42 of 3,693

prot

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Well I've been following AOIP, the companies, and their various protocols and hardware for close to 8 years, and the coming wave is has always been just around the corner. :wink:. So forgive me if I am still a bit skeptical about this year. AES67, hailed as the "open standard" uniter, has yet produce hardware or software tools and modules that independent, non-pro-sound DAC developers can readily license and utilize. That's why you still don't see many Ethernet DACs or converters with non-DLNA AOIP.

We aren't there yet and 2016 isn't going to be the year!


So lovely to see you and rb2013 'fight.' The energy you invest in FUDing any (possible) competitors for bogus reasons is lovely Superdad .. not even sure what something like "non-dlna aoip" is supposed to mean ... that's like trashing apples for being 'non-orange apples'

But the loveliest is that none of you 'experts' seem to know what you are talking about ... you both keep using AoIP when in fact you are taking about AoE. Here's a primer:
AoIP is an european broadcast standard used by the likes of BBC .. think 'advanced form of VoIP/telephony'.
AoE is a much broader umbrella that includes any form of audio over ethernet .. not necessarily over-IP! It includes AoIP. It also includes Aes67/dante/ravenna.
However!
Aes67&co are primarily designed for studios .. their main purpose is to transmit highres audio with zero package-loss and (almost) zero latency .. mainly in a LAN.
AoIP is primarily for WANs like the internet .. the main purpose is to transmit quality audio in realtime (e.g. from live events like the olympics) while dealing with the unavoidable latency of long distance networks. Losing/skipping a few audio bits is also pretty much unavoidable.

Incidentally both AoIP and Aes67 are 'oIP' .. and one can use AoIP to listen to music at home but that would be like using a fork to eat soup :).
These network-audio things are already very complex, confusing and quite new .. it'll be very helpful if you two 'experts' wont mix and Fud them further.

P.S.
a very useful comparison table for most AoE protocols. Some may be surprised to see that aes67 is currently limited to 24/96 for some misterious reasons.
 
May 29, 2016 at 9:49 AM Post #43 of 3,693
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Well I've been following AOIP, the companies, and their various protocols and hardware for close to 8 years, and the coming wave is has always been just around the corner.
wink.gif
. So forgive me if I am still a bit skeptical about this year. AES67, hailed as the "open standard" uniter, has yet produce hardware or software tools and modules that independent, non-pro-sound DAC developers can readily license and utilize. That's why you still don't see many Ethernet DACs or converters with non-DLNA AOIP.

We aren't there yet and 2016 isn't going to be the year!


But the infamous unicorn - has arrived!
 
NADAC (thanks Prot for bringing this to my attention on the other thread)!
So far the reviews of this sota DAC are outstanding.
 
I think with the advent of your excellent Regen and then other USB gizmos, I count about a dozen so far, has really focused the spoltlight of the audiophile awareness on all the gremlins with USB UAC.
 
And these USB gizmos do work - at least in my experience.  But also in the backdrop the other big development - MS support for Thunderbird 3 and Intel as well (and the adoption of the USB-c connector).  So another very promising digital audio path, also with great promise.  As of now not a single WIN compatible TB2 or TB3 out there - that will also change. I imagine Focusrite is already working on one.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1064429-thunderbolt-support-windows-10-a.html
 
What's cool about AES67 and TB3 - they both can operate on a LAN.
 
A audio sea change in the works
 
May 29, 2016 at 10:04 AM Post #44 of 3,693
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So lovely to see you and @rb2013 'fight.' The energy you invest in FUDing any (possible) competitors for bogus reasons is lovely @Superdad .. not even sure what something like "non-dlna aoip" is supposed to mean ... that's like trashing apples for being 'non-orange apples'

But the loveliest is that none of you 'experts' seem to know what you are talking about ... you both keep using AoIP when in fact you are taking about AoE. Here's a primer:
AoIP is an european broadcast standard used by the likes of BBC .. think 'advanced form of VoIP/telephony'.
AoE is a much broader umbrella that includes any form of audio over ethernet .. not necessarily over-IP! It includes AoIP. It also includes Aes67/dante/ravenna.
However!
Aes67&co are primarily designed for studios .. their main purpose is to transmit highres audio with zero package-loss and (almost) zero latency .. mainly in a LAN.
AoIP is primarily for WANs like the internet .. the main purpose is to transmit quality audio in realtime (e.g. from live events like the olympics) while dealing with the unavoidable latency of long distance networks. Losing/skipping a few audio bits is also pretty much unavoidable.

Incidentally both AoIP and Aes67 are 'oIP' .. and one can use AoIP to listen to music at home but that would be like using a fork to eat soup
smily_headphones1.gif
.
These network-audio things are already very complex, confusing and quite new .. it'll be very helpful if you two 'experts' wont mix and Fud them further.

P.S.
a very useful comparison table for most AoE protocols. Some may be surprised to see that aes67 is currently limited to 24/96 for some misterious reasons.


I use AOIP not AoIP - the former is just audio over IP , the latter the std you mention (and is not what I posted).  I can understand your confusion. 
 
And you are right about the current AES67 std of 96k.  Read my post again - I mention a min layer 3 interoperability std - not a sota audio std.  And why Dante and Ravenna are free to develop greater capabilities and have!  The REDNET/Dante can do 192k over IP and the Ravenna NADAC 384k and 256DSD over IP.
 
Now Focusrite is the leader in a reasonable cost AES67 compliant AOIP solution available right this minute (in fact have one coming next week) so this is not pie in the sky vaporware. - Ravenna is coming up strong as a free open platform.  And with a very long and growing list of partners - http://www.ravenna-network.com/partners/
 
Who cares which is used in a audiophile system - as long as they sound good - and the driver is available in Windows and it operates over a GB LAN.
 
Now the beauty of these leading edge devices - is their easy use with most high end audio players - unlike the DNLA/UpNP fiasco.
 
But hey the commonality of all these devices in communicating with the DAC - SPDIF! 
Even the Merging Tech enshews USB, i2s, but does include SPDIF - interesting.
wink_face.gif
 
 
May 29, 2016 at 12:40 PM Post #45 of 3,693
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  Hi Guys !
thanks a lot for the very interesting information and valuable advice.
I have a very uneducated question:
 
can we say that ethernet is intrinsically a much better way (i.e. more reliable) to tranfers digital files than usb ?
 
I think that ethernet is the key point.
Probably if they have used it from the beginning to connect pc and audio peripherals we all have now much better sound ?
Ravenna or not ?
When i see guys here with even 6-7 devices plus cables to realize a decent usb connection between the pc and the dac my feeling is very bad about usb connection.  Very bad.
Clearly there is some issues with usb.
This is ridiculous.
Hope they will fix it soon.
From my point of view a pcie adapter and a very good ethernet to aes/ebu (or spdif)  interface could solve everything.
I am praying for that actually.
Thanks a lot,  gino


Yes you are right  - LAN ethernet AOIP is inherently superior due to it's native galvanic isolation, and electrical structure (no 5VDC power running along with the data stream).  Remember USB UAC was a work around and was never even accepted by Microsoft - without support even in WIN10.  From what I have read they just did not like the violation of the original USB protocol. Why MS has chosen to ignore UAC is a mystery to me.  But they certainly embrace ethernet IP.
 
Now there have been proprietary ethernet CAT5 solutions for Computer audio for over a decade - but not necessarily LAN compatible or IP based.  So this is really a major change in the computer audio landscape.  I have a PCIe EMU1616M that is very good and uses CAT5 - so we have come full circle.  The difference now is the holy grail of an emerging common communications std for AOIP.  This now provides the guideposts for equipment manufacturers to design around - to build a truly accepted audio standard like SPDIF and USB - so establishing AOIP as the next evolutionary step in high end computer audio.
 
And for us audiophiles - without the need to have a shared master clock timing many devices on a LAN - even better.  As the clock can be in the interface and usually easily supplemented with a better ext word clock.
 

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