[Audio-Phile]

I did, I must have missed this. Hence my extreme confusion.

Regardless....given the output specs of the Hugo 2...it’s defintely not even close to capable of this sort of output. I believe it’s something like 94mW into 300 ohms, and given the moderate sensitivity of a 200 ohm LCD4...seems like it’s still not enough. Also...again...the voltage swing is something that you will want to maximize with these cans, or others like them. Overall, to put the type of current & voltage you really need into these things in order to make them sound good at all volumes & with all music, you need more than most amps can provide.

I’m almost certain that at one point I was told that my Mojo must have been “defective” in order for it to distort with the LCD4s, hence the point in bringing it up as an example of something that’s got enough power for most cans but clearly not enough for these. I stand by that assertion.

 

[commtrd]

Hugo 2 may be sufficient but one has to understand that they really can't judge/criticize the LCD4 in this case coz it's not being powered at it's best or also criticize the SQ of the Hugo 2 due to not delivering optimum power to the LCD 4.

Interesting discussion. I sadly do not own LCD4 but do own 4z. And LCDi4. Driving both with Hugo 2 -but- also Gilmore Lite Mk2. Hugo 2 did drive both of these phones OK, but adding the amp into the chain flat woke those headphones UP. Now I am quite aware of the difference in input impedance, however I suspect this combo could possibly drive the 4s with sufficient authority to satisfy. Conjecture on my part though admittedly. AND single-ended, may be further impediment to adequate performance. Prolly safe to say that a GS-X Mk2, Wells Audio, Violectric 281, and similar are really recommended to drive these headphones and realize their potential.

 

[jlbrach]

asking if the H2 CAN drive the LCD-4 is not the same as asking if it can drive it to potential....yes it can drive it no it will not sound as it should....the 4z on the other hand will sound great......

 

[801evan]

Planars don’t change impedance with frequency response. For example, the Utopia’s dynamic driver bass around 50-60Hz is 300 Ohms compared to around 80 Ohms at 1kHz, while the LCD-4 is dead flat across the spectrum.

Right on with the impedance so I wonder what other factor can it be with planar. It might be a gain thing since as I said earlier the higher gain output is closer,but smoother, to the sound quality straight on the Hugo 2. That's why I'm curious putting it to the test with the THX 789 and it's -6db gain.

I've tried the Cavalli amp with balanced output and it sounds better than on SE but that's due to the implementation on the amp. That and the GSX mkii may sound good but for me they (and typically balanced on planar), have a higher noise floor and sounds a bit crowded in the upper mids and highs and can ultimately be fatiguing. It's also similar sound signature on the Cayin iha-6 with high current, low gain.

Also, after getting the Bakoon, I couldn't take the lack of highs on the LCD2c and like to my brain that it's just a bit dark, despite a cable upgrade that helped a lot, and sold it.it made me understand the highs I was hearing from the LCD2c was noise. So some reviews on the LCD 4 and it's highs can be smoothened out on the Bakoon

 

[801evan]

asking if the H2 CAN drive the LCD-4 is not the same as asking if it can drive it to potential....yes it can drive it no it will not sound as it should....the 4z on the other hand will sound great......

Yeah. The 4z saves one from needing to buy an amp I imagine. I had a mixed bag experience with the MX4 vs LCD2c. LCD2c sounded the best straight on the Hugo, and it's splitting hairs vs the O2. The energy coming out of it is amazing. With the MX4, oddly it got more bass that's needed (and a touch more body across the FR) but a higher noise floor with the Cavalli. But perhaps it's the sonic signature of the Cavalli that's influencing this sound. If we are to consider how people are saying the MX4 is a departure from the Audeze sound then it is what it is. 4z kinda gives you a 500-1.7k discount over the 4 since it doesn't need an amp.

 

[x RELIC x]

Right on with the impedance so I wonder what other factor can it be with planar. It might be a gain thing since as I said earlier the higher gain output is closer,but smoother, to the sound quality straight on the Hugo 2. That's why I'm curious putting it to the test with the THX 789 and it's -6db gain.

I've tried the Cavalli amp with balanced output and it sounds better than on SE but that's due to the implementation on the amp. That and the GSX mkii may sound good but for me they (and typically balanced on planar), have a higher noise floor and sounds a bit crowded in the upper mids and highs and can ultimately be fatiguing. It's also similar sound signature on the Cayin iha-6 with high current, low gain.

Which Cavalli amp (there are many)? Yes, the difference between the balanced and SE output is likely because the topology of the amp. My Liquid Gold is a differential balanced design so SE is not using the amp as designed. However, there is no real dramatic change when I compare high and low gain when I match the volume output on the Liquid Gold.

Gain is an increase of signal power with the associated distortion that comes with it. Some amps have more and some amps have less (implementation). Typically if there is an option between low and high gain the low gain is preferred for a cleaner signal if the high gain is not required. Again, are you accurately volume matching between high and low gain (on the same gear) because without doing so the comparison will be moot. Again, the low/high gain setting of an amp should not be the reason it should sound so different if volume matched.

Look everyone, I’m either having a very difficult time explaining or there is some gross misunderstanding of my point. Take the same source, playing the same track, feeding two different amps of different power output and gain (but enough to cover the needs of the headphone with some headroom), MATCHED to the EXACT same SPL with the same headphone. One amp may have the volume at 1/2 and the other amp may have the volume at 3/4. Both amps feeding the same headphone will output the exact same power if volume matched to the exact same SPL, regardless of gain or max power availability. That’s ALL I’M SAYING. It’s the way transducer REACT to the power fed to them. Transducers don’t predict what is available.

I’m NOT saying weak amps that can’t deliver the required amount of juice are going to sound good (not meeting the power needs of the headphone) and certainly not all amps are the same. The key point is WHEN THERE IS ENOUGH it’s simply enough. But, when is enough enough? 8.1 Jigawatts or >500mW as Audeze now recommends on their website (>100mW minimum)?

Implementation (which covers a wide topic) and distortion characteristics (which can dramatically affect warmth or brightness) are what, to me, are much more important than just power when the needs of the transducer for the desired listening level are met. The listening level will depend of environment, mood, track recording level, etc. That’s why headroom is important and one does not want to run out of steam in certain scenarios.

@801evan, you specifically said the Hugo2 doesn’t have enough Current and I called you out. You specifically said the TT2 doesn’t heave enough Current, which is absurd. It’s statements like that that I react to. To everyone else, I’m not trying to say a weak output will sound good or meet the potential of the headphone.

The above comment that you, @801evan, found the GSX, a powerful amp, sounded crowded and fatiguing is exactly my point. A powerful amp that doesn’t synergize for the user. Go figure. Yet, with the Hugo2 it’s presumed to be a lack of power, even though Audeze has recommended it specifically as a powerful source. I won't say anymore as I’m sure it’s tiring for everyone.

 

[801evan]

Which Cavalli amp (there are many)? Yes, the difference between the balanced and SE output is likely because the topology of the amp. My Liquid Gold is a differential balanced design so SE is not using the amp as designed. However, there is no real dramatic change when I compare high and low gain when I match the volume output on the Liquid Gold.

Gain is an increase of signal power with the associated distortion that comes with it. Some amps have more and some amps have less (implementation). Typically if there is an option between low and high gain the low gain is preferred for a cleaner signal if the high gain is not required. Again, are you accurately volume matching between high and low gain (on the same gear) because without doing so the comparison will be moot. Again, the low/high gain setting of an amp should not be the reason it should sound so different if volume matched.

Look everyone, I’m either having a very difficult time explaining or there is some gross misunderstanding of my point. Take the same source, playing the same track, feeding two different amps of different power output and gain (but enough to cover the needs of the headphone with some headroom), MATCHED to the EXACT same SPL with the same headphone. One amp may have the volume at 1/2 and the other amp may have the volume at 3/4. Both amps feeding the same headphone will output the exact same power if volume matched to the exact same SPL, regardless of gain or max power availability. That’s ALL I’M SAYING. It’s the way transducer REACT to the power fed to them. Transducers don’t predict what is available.

I’m NOT saying weak amps that can’t deliver the required amount of juice are going to sound good (not meeting the power needs of the headphone) and certainly not all amps are the same. The key point is WHEN THERE IS ENOUGH it’s simply enough. But, when is enough enough? 8.1 Jigawatts or >500mW as Audeze now recommends on their website?

Implementation (which covers a wide topic) and distortion characteristics (which can dramatically affect warmth or brightness) are what, to me, are much more important than just power when the needs of the transducer for the desired listening level are met. The listening level will depend of environment, mood, track recording level, etc. That’s why headroom is important and one does not want to run out of steam in certain scenarios.

@801evan, you specifically said the Hugo2 doesn’t have enough Current and I called you out. You specifically said the TT2 doesn’t heave enough Current, which is absurd. It’s statements like that that I react to. To everyone else, I’m not trying to say a weak output will sound good or meet the potential of the headphone.

The above comment that you, @801evan, found the GSX, a powerful amp, sounded crowded and fatiguing is exactly my point. A powerful amp that doesn’t synergize for the user. Go figure. Yet, with the Hugo2 it’s presumed to be a lack of power, even though Audeze has recommended it specifically as a powerful source. I won't say anymore as I’m sure it’s tiring for everyone.

Thanks Relic. I mostly agree with you. Most of my conjecture of what's maybe going on under the hood is trying to connect with the marketing of an amp and me demoing it. OTL and tubes for it's powerful voltage and Bakoon and the like marketing their current mode amping. End of the day, it really is implementation and hearing people's impressions and mapping what matching with what. While it may appear there's some conclusive take on which amp or amp tech is better, it can't be an absolute predictor even if I wish it was so it wouldn't be a more laborious and expensive exercise.

 

[Articnoise]

Most people that buy a LCD-4 or other TOTL headphones want to get them to sound as good as possible. So then someone says that they hear that one amp doesn’t have enough power* they don’t really mean sufficient electrical power* to get a SPL of 120 dB, or whatever. They mean “power of the entire amplifier”, and not the maximal power out. The power of a good amplifier is not only about the amount of electrical power* it can deliver, it’s about pushing and pulling the headphones transducer fast, steady and with absolute control without adding or taking anything away.

An amp and transducer is connected electrical, but to understand how they work together it’s sometimes easier to think of them as being connected mechanically, because the effect is similar. An amp can be pictured as a motor (with both horsepower and torque) that is connected to the transducer thru a piston. The amp is not only pushing the transducer it also has to be able to pull. When pulling the driver back some power is sent back to the amp. The pushing and pulling is of course not mechanical, its electrical in reality, which means that the amplifier has to be powerful enough, not only to output a good amount of power fast and with control, it also has to do it while handling the return power. Think of a boxer that equally can give hard punches but also has to be able to do that while taking punches.

A good amplifier for the LCD-4 and other hard to drive headphones has to be rather powerful so it can control the drivers fast and with authority. The amount of Watts is an indication of one significant electrical property, but the specified watt of an amp is not saying it all – let your ears be the final judge.

*Power = voltage*current

 

[x RELIC x]

Most people that buy a LCD-4 or other TOTL headphones want to get them to sound as good as possible. So then someone says that they hear that one amp doesn’t have enough power* they don’t really mean sufficient electrical power* to get a SPL of 120 dB, or whatever. They mean “power of the entire amplifier”, and not the maximal power out. The power of a good amplifier is not only about the amount of electrical power* it can deliver, it’s about pushing and pulling the headphones transducer fast, steady and with absolute control without adding or taking anything away.

An amp and transducer is connected electrical, but to understand how they work together it’s sometimes easier to think of them as being connected mechanically, because the effect is similar. An amp can be pictured as a motor (with both horsepower and torque) that is connected to the transducer thru a piston. The amp is not only pushing the transducer it also has to be able to pull. When pulling the driver back some power is sent back to the amp. The pushing and pulling is of course not mechanical, its electrical in reality, which means that the amplifier has to be powerful enough, not only to output a good amount of power fast and with control, it also has to do it while handling the return power. Think of a boxer that equally can give hard punches but also has to be able to do that while taking punches.

A good amplifier for the LCD-4 and other hard to drive headphones has to be rather powerful so it can control the drivers fast and with authority. The amount of Watts is an indication of one significant electrical property, but the specified watt of an amp is not saying it all – let your ears be the final judge.

*Power = voltage*current

Yes, slew rate. Of course, and *most people would agree with you, as do I. How many times have I said implementation is so important and the actual output is less so when you can cover what you need. That's not what started this whole thing though. It was a confusion about what was being output but then others completely misunderstood what was being discussed. My apologies if you weren't referring to me.

 

[lentoviolento]

You guys are boring.. Time to unsubscribe

 

[mlxx]

To add, I tried the Hifiman He1k and He1k SE on the Bakoon and the Bakoon had a hard time. I had to be max on both the Hugo and the Bakoon. Despite being planar and 35ohms, it's 90db sensitivity made it want more voltage than current. This is validated by trying it on an IFI stack where with 1x gain it sounds far and lacks drive. Adding gain gives it that needed energy to sound right.
LCD 3 and 4, despite having 110 ohms and 200 ohms, it's 102 and 97 db sensitivity makes it lean more towards current.

Interesting amp the Bakoon, seems to be pure current mode unlike the Questyle that still has a final I/V stage.
This is for the HPA21 but I think the HPA01 is the same, https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BakoonHPA21CurrentOutput.pdf
It isn't suited to low impedance, low sensitivity headphones like the HE1000. From the THD%+Noise vs Output Vrms graph, you can see that for the 32 Ohms and less cases, it is very limited. It also has quite high distortion (always) and the table at the bottom shows very little power at any ohms (weird) and very high output impedance due to current mode.

I notice you use the H2 as a gain, generally, you should set the H2 to output 2V or whatever your amp is expecting on its input and leave it there, that is where the amp will work best. As you probably know by now, for a resistive load, the voltage and current will go up and down with volume/music but the ratio of voltage to current will remain the same, this ratio is set by the impedance of the headphone not the sensitivity or the amp. There are also several ways to measure sensitivity, comparing sensitivity for Audeze headphones is Ok but across different manufacturers or with power calculators may not always be that accurate (good as an estimate though).

 

[TropicalChemist]

Due to space constraints on my current desktop, I can only afford to have a Hugo 2 and I’m thinking to getting a LCD4. Will the LCD4 sound great with the Hugo 2 alone?

I can vouch for the Violectric amps, my V280 sounds wonderful with the LCD-4’s. I’m also not sure how much power they actually need. With no gain switches and a ~5V RMS XLR signal I don’t find myself going past 1-2 o clock on the volume pot.

The footprint is really really small, and it doesn’t run too hot imo. Could be worth a look.

 

[sahmen]

I use the LCD-4 with three different desktop rigs, all of which drive it with aplomb:

1. Yggdrasil Analog2 + Violectric V281 (unity gain, with volume dial set at approximately 10:30) - This is my very favorite, but the other two are no slouches with the LCD-4 either.
2. Metrum Acoustics Onyx + Monolith Cavalli Liquid Platinum (With volume dial at 11:30 - 12:00)
3. Audio gd Reference 5.32 (w/Amanero USB combo) + Audiogd NFB1 amp (Volume 25-30ish [out of 100 - 9:30-10:30?] in High gain)

All the amps perform very well with the LCD-4, but in terms of size, the Liquid Platinum might be the smallest .(Okay, to put it more accurately, it is wider than both the V281 and the NFB1 Amp, but overall, it is has the shortest height and depth of the three, and is also the least bulky in overall size and weight)

 

[801evan]

Interesting amp the Bakoon, seems to be pure current mode unlike the Questyle that still has a final I/V stage.
This is for the HPA21 but I think the HPA01 is the same, https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BakoonHPA21CurrentOutput.pdf
It isn't suited to low impedance, low sensitivity headphones like the HE1000. From the THD%+Noise vs Output Vrms graph, you can see that for the 32 Ohms and less cases, it is very limited. It also has quite high distortion (always) and the table at the bottom shows very little power at any ohms (weird) and very high output impedance due to current mode.

I notice you use the H2 as a gain, generally, you should set the H2 to output 2V or whatever your amp is expecting on its input and leave it there, that is where the amp will work best. As you probably know by now, for a resistive load, the voltage and current will go up and down with volume/music but the ratio of voltage to current will remain the same, this ratio is set by the impedance of the headphone not the sensitivity or the amp. There are also several ways to measure sensitivity, comparing sensitivity for Audeze headphones is Ok but across different manufacturers or with power calculators may not always be that accurate (good as an estimate though).

Ah interesting we get to match my erpexperie with the he1k and you checking out the specs. The he1k was actually getting crackling distortions but I didn't fully understand why. My Ety er4xr sounds better (taste preference ) on high gain vs low gain. On the 800s it was getting the most bass I've heard on it ever but 8 lacked demo time to get more impressions out of it.

Yeah I still did my own experiments with using Hugo 2 as gain or setting it at 2v or 3v so I can train my ear to see what's going on. O2 on battery needs under 2v so it wouldn't get distortions. With ac power, 2.9v is the max on 2.5x gain. On 1x gain, I can max my Hugo 2's volume and these are consistent with the specs on the o2 sheet on input voltage max and when things start to distort.

The Bakoon HPA01m seems to distort already on 1v on the Hugo 2 but I demoed the he1k that time so it wasnt the best demo I guess. But the HPA01 can handle more max volume on the Hugo 2. Now, the point of all this is that I seem to get the best quality if I keep the HP amp at 12:30 on both the O2 and HPA01 with the LCD2c and 3. 3 o'clock on the Sine. I get a more inferior sound when the Hugo 2 is set at 2v or 3v and I adjust volume on the amp. I don't quite understand why I'm hearing what I'm hearing but that's my observation.

 

[mlxx]

The Bakoon HPA01m seems to distort already on 1v on the Hugo 2 but I demoed the he1k that time so it wasnt the best demo I guess. But the HPA01 can handle more max volume on the Hugo 2. Now, the point of all this is that I seem to get the best quality if I keep the HP amp at 12:30 on both the O2 and HPA01 with the LCD2c and 3. 3 o'clock on the Sine. I get a more inferior sound when the Hugo 2 is set at 2v or 3v and I adjust volume on the amp. I don't quite understand why I'm hearing what I'm hearing but that's my observation.

You are probably just hitting a sweet spot, looking at that THD graph, for the 150 Ohm case around 1V is the lowest distortion so by adjusting the gain on the H2 you may be in that region, it could more complex than that though. This amp probably sounds tube like, it has quite high distortion for a solid state.