[socks mk2]

[redacted]

 

[Smazz]

  I was discussing the recent Wall of Fame changes on innerfidelity with a colleague and came across a rather interesting rant that I thought was worth sharing. I can't cross post, so I figured the LCD-4 thread is the place to put it. Note that the comments in the spoiler are not my own.
 

Spoiler: A users rant about Tyll's recent WoF purge

Tyll Please consider my thoughts,
 
Years have past, many products been released, but you've yet to replace the hd600 with something more lucrative (which there is) and there's zero headphones/suggestions within the 400-900$ category.The He 400I is around 450-550$ and it's much better than the Hd600, I understand it may be somewhat bright to you but measurements and general consensus suggest otherwise. The Akg K712 is the same price as The hd600 essentially, an improvement over the Akg Q701, but you've yet to review it, The akg k612 is less than 200$ an is an absolute steal, and sound just as good as the hd600, and in my experience has better tonal balance yet you've yet to review them, the hd600 is nearly two decades old, it's pasts it's prime, though a revelation at the time, it's been down since and BETTER, it's time to remove it .
 
I actually think that the Dt880 600 ohms is better and far more comparable too the likes of the Hd800 than the HD 600 or 650, it measures better to as well. sand again in my experience it's the closest thing you can get to the high end for 300$ it's also inherently cheaper than the HD600, though I don't want to get involved those flaming wars people over at head fi have over this, that's a long long dead horse beating argument so apologies for sharing these thoughts haha.
 
The Mr speakers Alpha prime is phenomenal sounding and measures spectacularly yet you've yet to review them, same goes for the Alpha dog which two years ago you said you would, which you didn't. The alpha prime is 1000$ and there has yet to be a good 100$ sealed can posted ion this category, My suggestion would be this great headphone. The Emu Teak, which is essentially an upgraded version of the Denon dh5000 is yet to be reviewed.
 
Also it's a genuinely flabbergasted that you removed the NAD hp50 viso from the wall of fame, I really disagree with the assertion that the meze 99 Classics are better, and even if the oppo pm3 is better than the Nad hp50viso, it IS 100 $ more and will be more than that once you apply taxes. I have similar thought for the audio technics msr7. Also i recently heard the Akg k553 which is a solid improvement over the k550 which mitigates it's past problems with the treble, plz check it out when you have the time. Also check out the new fostex Th 610, it's in all likelihood it probably very similar to the mass drop headphones that they released, which you apparently really liked.
 
I also am highly curios why you haven't given the Stax 009 a proper review like all the other Wall of fame headphones, this seems to be a rather odd exception. Speaking of electrostatic headphones Stax has a whole myriad of GREAT headphones in various price ranges, it's a genuine mystery why you haven't reviewed them, my guess is that you think there too bright, which doesn't surprise me, though other than that stax's collection of headphones are solid in every other regard.
 
While I do agree with your removal of the Audeze headphones and other subsequent headphones such as the HE1000 which IMO is more of a luxury can than a reference high performance can from the wall of fame i disagree with your removal of the Oppo pm2 which is great AT it's respective price point, I also diagree with your removal of the Audeze lcd x, which in the past you've criticized Audeze for have an uneven treble or a muffled sound, the LCD X fixes that, so it's somewhat odd to me that you've removed such a great headphone, despite it being a just a hair grainier and less resolving than the headphones currently on the wall of fame . I Don't think that the Ether is better than the LCD X, The X has better imaging, is more resolving and has better extension on both ends, has better dynamics and authority in the bass as well, I also thought that the HD800 was handily better than the ether, there also the same price as well.
 
My biggest problem is your removal of the original HD800 in favour of the HD800s, which through my personal observation did NOT fix the 6-7khz problem you've been griping about (see measurements) and is actually even more recessed in the lower treble (2-4khz) than the hd800. This kind of reminds me of the Hd600 and 650 problem which arose 3-4 years ago when you first reviewed them, you removed the HD650 in favour of the HD600 because it was more neutral, with less of a murky sound and since it was cheaper, now you've done the opposite ? With the the Hd800 and HD800s. I laughed hysterically at your logic , but hey that was 4 years ago and people change so whatever floats your boat. I also want to emphasize that paying 300$ more JUST for more distortion in the bass is laughable, and I don't understand how that leads to a objectively better bass response, in reality your latest measurements of stock HD800 that you've provided with the Anaxalius mod pdf shows that the HD800 has better sustain and compression on lower notes and bass extension than the hd800s just look at the fr chart and square waves.
 
I won't disagree with you that the HD800's sounds warmer, though Id think IN general the Hd800 is a better Price/performance headphone, the hd 800s is NOT a gross improvement over the hd800, it's a series of compromises that makes the hd800 more listenable to some, but sacrifices some of it's inherently great features such as low and linear distortion and a neutral response, you also mustn't forget that the hd800s is 250-300$ more. You can't honestly look anyone in the eye and say that the HD800s is an overall improvement, because it's not. Again I want to emphasize that like hd650, it's a series of compromises that makes it more subjectively listenable to some, but doesn't actually improve it's actual ability or proficiency regarding sound reproduction. Also why would i pay 300$ more when I can just add distortion by getting a tube amp and/or softening the treble and dampening the overshooting with a 5$ anaxalius mod?
 
Regarding the Focal Utopia and the Utopia alone, IT's a great headphones, with a great build and is a true luxury experience, though sound wise I think it's still at the same level as the hd800, and if it is better, Not by 3000$ rofl. I think your way too lenient and forgiving to manufactures jacking up the price, I have similar thoughts on your opinions about the Lcd2 and lcd3. I Was incredibly shocked that these headphones made it to the wall of fame since the Audze lcd4 did not, though the Utopia is mildly better, there's so incredibly similar sounding, intact the same reasons you complained about with the audeze lcd 4 is the same, actually worse problem I had with the utopia and that's the lower treble and high treble balance, both headphones have the same dip, and similar peaks in the treble, though it's worse on the utopia, and both have a lot of high frequency enegery above 10khz, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that you raved over focal Utopia pretty much not mentioning a single issue regarding it's sound and hammered the audeze lcd 4 for problems that both of these headphones have. not to mention they are the same price and sound almost the same, though the imaging and soundstage is different for obvious reasons. I'm calling Over-hyping on this product, not to take away from it's great performance or anything, they sound phenomenal but they don't sound like 4000$. You can't honestly look anyone in the eye and tell thyme to save 4000$ and invest in those headphone over another product. MAYBE if it's 3000$, better yet 2500$ or 2000$, 4000$? forget it, it's an insult to the WOF and completely counter intuitive to why you created the wall of fame in the first place, which was in your own words trying to find the best performance within each price category, unlike the Stax 009 with a good amp, it does not best all comers or other headphones at lower price points. The elear and listen are great however and deserve spots on the wall of fame as they both are very well priced.
 
Anyways those are my thought that I've had over the past couple years here at innerfidelity. None the less your list is still great, and covers lots of products, though if I was in your positions, I would've done things somewhat differently regarding the wall of fame.
 
Thanks For Your Time
source: http://www.innerfidelity.com/comment/509483#comment-509483

I'm also curious as to how Tyll comes to all of these conclusions. If I recall correctly, I don't think Tyll had any kind of power conditioning in his listening room prior to his Big Sound 2015 project. He also seems to have a habit of only using amps and headphones single ended, even if the amps topology shows that it performs better/best fully balanced if it's capable of running balanced. Even his measurements of amps are only done in single ended; correct me if I'm wrong. All of the headphone measurements are also strictly when running single ended, no? What gives?

My own observation looking back. Check out the Big Sound 2015 Wrap: My Take on the Headphone Amps article. This isn't the only balanced amp in the field, but it's the only one that was mentioned as being capable of balanced operation. It was also the only amp that has an explanation as it pertains to why running it balanced is beneficial to overall performance.
 

Spoiler: Multiple balanced amps; only one is discussed about in balanced operation. Huh?

Schiit Ragnarok ($1699)
This is where the picking gets hard. The Ragnarok and all the remaining amps were really good; all having strengths and weaknesses comparatively that make it somewhat silly to rank them in a particular order. A lot of this is guided by personal values.
 
The Ragnarok is a beast of an amp, and like all the Schiit gear, available at a really attractive price. It's a perfect complement for hard-to-drive headphones in balanced mode. And it's also a 60 Watts/channel speaker amplifier, if you happen to want an integrated amp as well. One unusual thing about this amp is that it uses a circlotron circuit topology that inherently delivers a balanced output. The unbalanced outputs of the Rag, in Jason Stoddard's own words, are utility outputs—they work, but the amps isn't designed to optimize them for great sound.
 
I thought the sound in balanced mode was very good, especially with the planar magnetic cans. Well balanced bottom to top and had heaps of power to spare in all areas. To my ears it fell a bit behind some of the other amps in terms of finesse and air, however; I did feel it as a bit lifeless relative to the best amps of the bunch. I'd consider this amp a pretty damned good solution if you've got balanced planar magnetic headphones and need to drive some small-ish speakers, but I don't feel it's the best solution for HD 800 owners looking for world class resolution.

If it performs better balanced, why aren't you running it balanced?! For consistency? Why not have both Single Ended and Balanced measurements then? I understand that this is twice as much. Okay- a compromise then. Why not only run balanced capable amps in balanced use and leave single ended only amps in single ended use (since they cannot run balanced operation)?

If Tyll didn't keep any of the power conditioning equipment from Big Sound 2015 and only runs things single ended, I sure hope that he has the absolute best interconnects available on the planet to cut noise. Unfortunately he'll still be receiving noise from the wall which adds distortion and effects low end performance among other details. This also has me question his older measurements that pre-date any sort of power conditioning. Surely they were effected. Measuring all of those models again is an impossible feat; I understand that, but maybe note that somewhere?

The other issue I have is how in the world was all of that equipment in the same room with excess amounts of shared interconnections not prone to a ton of exposure to EMI/RFI? Sure, the power from the wall was conditioned, but nothing else is with that much going on. The server, wifi, cell phone bands, etc. So much opportunity for noise to be introduced into the system. This is where balanced use surely makes more sense to use than single ended. The length of the chain was also quite long compared to the average users rig, allowing a higher chance of noise to be introduced with an unbalanced connection.
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
Quote:

If I am to believe what I'm reading here, the Abyss AB-1266 is prone to clipping at said volume in single ended mode when paired with a Violectric V281. It's meant to be used in fully balanced operation for optimal performance, but it wasn't for this users demo of both the amp and the TOTL headphone. What the heck? Why would you ever do such a thing? Neither are then performing at their best under those circumstances. That's a bad representation of both products.

Again, if I am correct that Tyll only measures things in single ended operation, is that counter productive in such a scenario? Innerfidelity measurements for the JPS Labs Abyss AB-1266.

Y'know, the Hifiman HE-6 and Audeze LCD-4 are very power hungry headphones as well. Are they possibly running into the same issues in their measurements (Innerfidelity HE-6 & Innerfidelity LCD-4), along with possible noise effecting the low end performance of the graphs/plots? Is there a possibility of multiple headphones being underamped without headroom during testing?

I have genuine concern. I have OCD. Obsessions, compulsions, and all the other goodies that go with it. Today's obsession: getting to the bottom of this.

On a personal note... can we suggest Tyll rename his Wall of Fame into something slightly more suitable? Example 1: Wall of Single Ended Performance. Example 2: Wall of Personal Preference. He's only one man after all. A human at that. Nobody is perfect. Everything that gets removed from the current Wall of Fame diminishes in value; effectively lowering the items real world street price due to one persons opinion. One could argue that the HD800S, HD800, Ether/C 1.1, HE1000, and so on are not lesser headphones simply because they're no longer on a theoretical wall (some newcomers bumped them off).

Your rant reminds me of a line from American President, specifically when Michael J Fox's character says to the president: "it's not only our duty to question our leaders, it's our responsibility". Now I don't consider Tyll a leader, but he has been around a long time, and has reviewed a very many things. He is only one man, but its his blog and his youtube channel, so if you are listening and reading his opinions, and on his wall of fame, his word is "beyond contestation", because they are his ears, his opinions and his conclusions. That being said, I used to think his opinion was the law of the land, till I ordered the Mr. Speakers Ether C based largely on his review, and I didn't like them. Also, based on his review, I avoided the LCD-4 for a few months. He talked so much about the LCD-4s technology and then spends almost 90% of the rest of the review bashing its treble and the missing octave. After the Ether C debacle, I ordered the 4s anyways, blindly, and loved it. So, where as I value his opinion, I only value it when it agrees with mine, lol. Everyone has their preference, some like flat, some neutral, some bass heavy, some V shaped, some analytical sounding headphones. Don't worry so much about others opinions, they are your ears, and you hear things differently than others. What makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, your feet tap, sends a tingle down your spine, puts tears in yours eyes and makes you smile from ear to ear so much it hurts your cheeks is all that matters. 

 

[socks mk2]

[redacted]

 

[zhgutov]

 
If I am to believe what I'm reading here, the Abyss AB-1266 is prone to clipping at said volume in single ended mode when paired with a Violectric V281.

No, not at the said volume, because it will be clipping from V281 (in SE mode) in this case. It looks like the clipping come from Abyss at lower level, according to the theory, where there is the gap from the head.

 

[mulder01]

Quote:

If I am to believe what I'm reading here, the Abyss AB-1266 is prone to clipping at said volume in single ended mode when paired with a Violectric V281. It's meant to be used in fully balanced operation for optimal performance, but it wasn't for this users demo of both the amp and the TOTL headphone. What the heck? Why would you ever do such a thing? Neither are then performing at their best under those circumstances. That's a bad representation of both products.

Again, if I am correct that Tyll only measures things in single ended operation, is that counter productive in such a scenario? Innerfidelity measurements for the JPS Labs Abyss AB-1266.

Y'know, the Hifiman HE-6 and Audeze LCD-4 are very power hungry headphones as well. Are they possibly running into the same issues in their measurements (Innerfidelity HE-6 & Innerfidelity LCD-4), along with possible noise effecting the low end performance of the graphs/plots? Is there a possibility of multiple headphones being underamped without headroom during testing?

I have genuine concern. I have OCD. Obsessions, compulsions, and all the other goodies that go with it. Today's obsession: getting to the bottom of this.

On a personal note... can we suggest Tyll rename his Wall of Fame into something slightly more suitable? Example 1: Wall of Single Ended Performance. Example 2: Wall of Personal Preference. He's only one man after all. A human at that. Nobody is perfect. Everything that gets removed from the current Wall of Fame diminishes in value; effectively lowering the items real world street price due to one persons opinion. One could argue that the HD800S, HD800, Ether/C 1.1, HE1000, and so on are not lesser headphones simply because they're no longer on a theoretical wall (some newcomers bumped them off).

 
Not sure this is super related to the LCD-4, but RE the Abyss & clipping, I think it would be the same with any headphone - if you take them off your head and the driver has no dampening, it will clip with less power than it will on your head, so if someone had a very loose fit, put on some bass heavy music and cranked it right up, I can see how that could happen with the AB before it happened with another headphone because they all clamp onto your head whereas the AB just hangs there waiting for you to adjust it to your head.  It's a great feature when used properly - if you are listening at a low volume and/or want more bass, just tilt the headband back to give yourself a bit of a gap and there you go, if you want less, tighten the seal a bit - once you get used to it, you can almost instantly dial in the sound you want - if you are the sort of person who like to change it all the time - I just leave mine in the one spot.  This is why I personally take the AB's measurements with a very small grain of salt.  Anyone who has used them before for an extended period of time will tell you that you can change the FR with a quick headband adjustment.  You could do the measurements 5 times on 5 different angles / seals and get 5 different results.  
 
RE Tyll's wall of fame, I had always considered it to be Tyll's wall of personal preference...  If listening to headphones has taught me one thing, it's don't believe anything you read on the internet and go and listen to them for yourself.  At this price point, you could fly to anywhere in the world to go for an audition.  It might cost you a bit, but look at it as an investment - it will probably save you $10k constantly buying and selling flagship gear and never fully knowing that you have YOUR subjective best setup.  The LCD-4 MAY BE your endgame headphone, but if you haven't tried them all, your OCD will always be eating away at you causing you to question your purchase.  Each year or so when a few new flagship items come out, I get on a plane (domestic flight) to go and have a listen.  Thankfully I normally come home empty handed but happy knowing that I spent $300 on plane tickets but DIDN'T spend $3000 on gear I don't like.

 

[erik701]

Finally somebody mentioned that. Thank you socks mk2!

 
I never got it why Stax 009 are on the Tyll's WoF. They are very expensive if you will add cost of decent electrostatic amp, which you will not be able to use with your other dynamic or planar headphones and on the other hand, 009 are not perfect. They shine in some aspects of audio quality like transparency and amount of details, but they are very far from perfect universal headphones. In my opinion Abyss 1266 are exactly in the same position in terms of sound quality but on the other end of spectrum. They shine in low frequency and are suitable for all of the rest music which doesn't sounds good on 009 or electrostatic headphones in general. So we have 009 on the WoF even if Tyll's review on them is missing, but on the other hand we have Tyll's review of Abyss which weren't rate very well. If you compare these ľ headphones, Abyss are cheaper in view of whole rig (amp+cans) and suitable for more kinds of music genre. 
 
So Abyss were not put on the WoF because of their look? Maybe Tyll is person which didn't like look of Abyss like many other people in audiophile world, but I thought that WoF is about sound quality. Who will care if you have headphones Abyss or AKG K1000 on your head? You will listen them at home, with glass of good Scottish whiskey. Who will care how you look in your leather chair? Your wife, girlfriend? I don't think so. 
 
Similar situation with LCD-4. LCD-4 are great headphones, better than any other model from Audeze's LCD series before. LCD-3 were very good rated headphones on Innerfidelity website, they were even for very long time on WoF. So why LCD-4 are not there now if they sound better, build quality is better, in short term, they are better in every aspect. As there is already mentioned, they cost same price as Utopia. Utopia were marked as best headphones in the world, only headphone worth to spare 4K to purchase. LCD-4 were rated as very expensive and not recommended at all... What can I say, make your own opinion.
 
At the end one note to the mulder01 post.
Some of us are saving hardly our money to be able one day purchase some flagship headphones like LCD-4. It's perfect when you live in area where you can try all of today's flagships, compare them and then decide which one you will buy. It's good if you have some money and time to spend for traveling to the meets like CanJams or any other audiophile community meets, but some of us live in countries where companies like Abyss or Focal don't have their official dealerships. E-Shops which offer these headphones are ordering them based on orders which they will receive from their customers, so no any demo cans to try. I'm happy that some of us are able to purchase new headphones just for comparison purpose, because then maybe someone like me will be able to purchase these headphones from this guy for less money and at the end both of us will be happy.
Anyway, this beautiful hobby is about curiosity. Where can I move my rig to get better sound?  Which component will improve my rig? Will this new flagship sounds better than my current model? At the end we all end up here to discuss our thoughts, experiences, opinions and that ladies and gentleman, that is great, because it's our passion.
 
 

 
THANK YOU

 

[rgs9200m]

Audio equipment evaluation is a messy mix of the objective and subjective with way too many factors to read something and proclaim it wrong or right.
 
A good headphone is such a sensitive creature that it changes drastically depending on the chain that's feeding it. I have various amps and sources, and I would rate each of my own headphones completely differently depending on how I drove it. But a reviewer needs a consistent system which necessarily leads to a single perspective that is only tunnel-vision of things. 
But that's the nature of this crazy subjective business and Tyll is supremely good at it given a basically impossible situation. And you will learn a lot if you keep reading Tyll. 
 
Also, reading audio evaluations is an art in itself. To get meaningful information out of it that could apply to you, you need to
(1) understand the reviewers preferences from past writings.
(2) consider the equipment and recordings.
(3) compare what he has written on equipment you already own.
(4) read the text carefully to see if the things he mentions are important to you.
 
It's like a movie or music critic (well, not quite that subjective). You need to have a familiarity with the writer to put what they say in context, and after a while you get a sense of whether you will agree.
 
And of course you should just relax and enjoy reading it for the fun of it. Paying much attention to the wall of fame thing is just far too gross to be anything than a fun exercise. It's good to throw virtual darts at the wall of fame as a game. It just a rough area of focus to narrow things down a bit at a given point in time and avoid being all over the place. 
__________________________________________________
 
TL;DR version: Read Tyll consistently, closely, and non-judgmentally, kick back and enjoy the ride, and all sorts of good knowledge will seep into your brain eventually and make you a smarter audiophile.
__________________________________________________

 

[goldendarko]

Tylls opinion is not law. He's just one dude reviewing headphones. I'm just thankful to read his reviews as he gets to try some of the newest and best gear that's available. But I don't try and take his word as gospel anymore than anyone else around here.

 

[Dillan]

I had a similar experience listening to the Ether's which he completely raves about.. and I wasn't impressed whatsoever. I also avoided the LCD-4 after his huge rant about cost and treble, but at the end of the day I think his opinion is too influenced by measurements. The LCD4s sounded so good when I first auditioned them.. I think my taste is just a lot different than his (which is fine). I just need to keep that in mind when watching or reading his stuff.

 

[jlbrach]

I have bought and sold the LCD-3's several times and owned pretty much all of the spoken of cans other than the abyss and the stax....all i can say is the LCD-4's do it for me.....i guess i simply like the audeze sound...i can listen to them for longer periods of time than other cans and to me the soundstage is the most natural of all ,things just seem to be where they belong and of course we know all about the bass and mid-range....sure other cans have larger or wider soundstages but in many cases they sound artificial to me....I do like the HEK's soundstage but the HD800's not so much.....in the end i do really think at this level it comes down to preference....some people like the sound of the 800s and some like audeze etc....some like a mercedes and some like a BMW......Tyll is an enthusiastic reviewer and he definitely serves a purpose for the community.....hey,I bought my Moon Neo 4300 after reading his gushing review and on that one i do think he hit the nail on the head
I am looking forward to giving the Utopia's a listen given all the positive reviews they have gotten,right now MY wall of fame consists of the HEK and the LCD-4 with honaorable mention to the Ether c's......perhaps the Utopia will replace one of my current members of the wall of fame!

 

[Hifi59]

Just the other day, I discovered the leather is peeling away on the front part of my LCD-4 earpads! They are well taken care of and don't have that many hours on them.
I decided to email Audeze about it. They responded,as usual ,immediately (Chris) . They are happy to take care of the issue but it was at that point that I learned that the earpads for the LCD-4 are not user replaceable! I had no idea. Chris explained that it has to do with the spacer gap. So now, my only options are to leave them be for now and get them replaced toward end of warranty or go ahead and ship them out for the replacement pads. Update...Today, I packed them up to ship out for new earpads. I will be having listening withdrawals along with occasional anxiety attacks as to whether the headphones return to me without any further damage from handling. Ugh!

 

[Hifi59]

Which one? Both gorgeous!

 

[Smazz]

Which one? Both gorgeous!

You know which one I like more, especially having them side by side like that 

 

[rgs9200m]

Sorry to hear that about the pads. That's why it's always good to keep a trusty pair of Senn 650s around for a backup.

 

[Hifi59]

Sorry to hear that about the pads. That's why it's always good to keep a trusty pair of Senn 650s around for a backup.

I actually have several backups. Was only referring to LCD-4 withdrawal.