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I feel like we've been through this before with the LCD-3. Was nothing learned from that experience
The LCD 4 costs a lot of money, therefore us Audiophiles deserve complete transparency. If you are going to make changes to your cans, please tell possible consumers what changes you have made.
Great with at least 2 that know some basic
MH if your assumptions would be correct, which they aren’t, the HE6 could be driven perfectly with a Mojo.
No matter how you twist it the amount of power on tap is reduced while going up in Impedance.
Lastly, according to the Audeze the LCD X is 103dB and the LCD 3F is 102dB. In real world use one has to turn up the volume quite a bit more with the LCD 3F. Why???
The HE-6s prove my point rather well..they are low impedance headphones at only 50 ohms...so based on your assumptions they would be driven perfectly by a Mojo. But rather their low sensitivity (a rather low 83.5dB / mW) shows that they are NOT! Thus my point!
I've given you the links....go run the numbers, please do...it's quite illuminating. It's just math/physics. So they are not "assumptions" but calculations. Please explain how my 102dB/mW 600 ohm T1s are almost as easy to drive? Why???
My point WAS (and let me state this again), impedance is not as BIG a factor as sensitivity when it comes to driving headphones. Why are 4 ohm speakers harder to drive than 8 ohm speakers? And I would think everyone with a $4000 pair of headphones would have a "proper" desktop amplifier and thus, there would be MINIMAL concerns going from 100 ohms to 200 ohms all with the same level of sensitivity...just as the CALCULATIONS show with 110dB SPL peaks. Most who would own the LCD-3 or LCD-4 have an amplifier like your Master 9...which wouldn't break a sweat with either 100 ohms or 200 ohms at 100dB.
Why in the world are two fantastic, experienced, and respected members having a Sound Science debate in the LCD-4 thread!!!
How do the darn things sound, and are they built well....!?!
HE-6 Impedance doesn’t prove your point. It proves that we cannot use the calculation you used. If the variables in there would be correct, how much power do we need to power the HE6? Almost nothing. Is it my experience no!
You keeps saying what your point is this or that. Most people know that more than one factors comes in to play. I sure have never said that Impedance is more important than efficiency. It’s of importance thou.
4 ohm is harder for the amp to drive than 8, yes. Harder is not the same as less power on tap, but that’s another story.
Sure it does...how can you say the HE-6s don't prove my point? Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever to me? They are a low 50 ohm impedance, but VERY hard to drive due to their 83.5dB sensitivity. That's the point! They (HE-6s) would require 502mW compared to a paltry 10mW for the LCD-4s (a whopping 50X more power). Please let me know what those "other factors" are that come into play? I think you're ascribing to some some age old myths here. Make no assumptions that folks are using a FiiO E5 to drive these headphones...instead their using amps like yours were this will be on no real consequences. And let's not mix up amp "gain" with "power".
I supplied you with 2 sources...please use those links and try and run the numbers for yourself. When looking at how hard headphones are to drive, I always look at the sensitivity first. Impedance is more of an issue for damping factor (orthos excluded).
Other factors: Voltage and Impedance.
I see no point in discuss this more, and I also feel I have explained what I had to say many times now.
I give up too.
On to more important stuff.. I just got off the phone with Mark at Audeze about the new driver. It's a different material and is even thinner and he says it sounds better, but the impedance goes up to 200 ohms and we lose 3db of efficiency. He also mentioned that it is more reliable. They are going to contact all the current LCD-4 owners and offer them a no-charge update to the new driver in a few weeks if they want it. They are just doing some more testing to make sure everything is fine with the new driver.
I'll be getting the updated driver as soon as it becomes available...
I am not saying the mojo will no longer drive them at all but it will be worse at 200Ohms. These are the specs of the mojo...
-Output Power @ 1kHz
-600 ohms 35mW
-8 ohms 720mW
-Output Impedance: 0.075 ohms
-Dynamic Range: 125dB
-THD @ 3v - 0.00017%
As you can see, the power it can provide goes down as the impedance goes up. The mojo probably has a 3V or 5V battery or something like that, so it is limited as to the voltage it can provide. It can't just find endless amounts of voltage it doesn't have.
Yes that is correct, with amplifiers that have big power supplies and can push all the voltage you need. It is due to impedance matching. If you have an impedance mismatch, for example, you have an amplifier with an output impedance of 200Ohms and a LCDX with an impedance of 20Ohms, then a lot of the power of the amplifier is not delivered to the headphone but instead is wasted as heat in the 200Ohms impedance of the amplifier (90% of the power is wasted in fact). If you connect a headphone with an impedance of 200Ohms to this same amplifier, then 50% is wasted in heat and 50% is provided to your headphone. If you connect a 400Ohm headphone then 25% is wasted and 75% is provided to you headphone. This is why people say higher impedance is easier to drive due to the efficiency of the power transfer (if the impedance of the load is made larger than the impedance of the source, then efficiency is higher). But many amplifiers just can't provide more power as the load impedance goes up due to their design, even though the efficiency of the power transfer may be better, the amplifier still can't provide the power needed at the higher impedance. So it depends on the specific amplifier, what effect going from 100 to 200 Ohms will have, in most cases, it will actually be worse.
That is good to hear, thanks!
that's what buck boost converters are for
Interesting to me...reading back on David Mahler's "Battle of the Flagships" exceptional work, he reported (I think late-2012) that the LCD-3 had impedance of 50 ohms. Today the LCD-3F are listed on the Audez'e site as having 110 ohms. Maybe a consequence of the fazor technology?
Curious as to how this affects new orders,like mine, coming in. Are they going to halt production until new driver testing is completed? Or, are they going to ship with old driver and do update as it becomes available, whenever that is.
Does this change make any happy owners reluctant to fix what doesn't seem to be broken? Would you rather wait until reports come in about the sonic differences? I would not want a bright phone, as I kind of like the current sweet and natural signature.