[omniweltall]

I have been thinking about this latest discussion regarding tone controls and EQ. It is definitely a good topic to talk about, but in the end as most things in this hobby it boils down to personal preference rather than objective truth and it is good to respect other's opinion and preference.

While I have always been a purist (prefer to experience gear as the manufacturer intended it to sound like) I admit, under certain circumstances a little EQ can be useful.
On the one hand your ears/audio taste will never develop if you always put a ton of bass on anything you hear. It is like eating everything with loads of ketchup, even a nice steak. (I am sure you know somebody who does this.) On the other hand, of course everyone is entitled to eat/listen to anything adjusting it to their own personal taste. If you want to eat your wagyu beef with ketchup, that is your personal decision and you have the right to do so without facing any judgements.

When I first swapped from dynamic headphones to the 2C I was surprised on the lack of mid-bass. Since a lot of head-fiers describe LCD2 as bass cannons. This is simply not true. LCD2 has a flat and neutral bass compared to most dynamic headphones especially under its price range. But if you don't go immediately after your accustomed mid-bass quantity, you discover that the LCD2 bass has a lot more to offer than mid-bass quantity. Extension, clarity, detail, punch. Qualities you can never hear elsewhere. Qualities you might learn to prefer to the usual mid-bass quantity of other headphones. And perhaps you find your music sounds even more delicate and professional. Discovering an array of different flavours instead of soaking everything in ketchup.

Another thing I'd like to mention is the quality of your system (DAC and amp). Some lower quality DACs and amps might not be able to give back the authority, extension and punch of bass notes. They might not offer an extended, detailed and airy enough treble. You won't notice this until you audition truly higher-end amps and DACs, over the 4 digit mark. The higher-end gear you use, probably the less EQ you need to achieve an enjoyable sound. Also, the more quality equipment you own, the less you want to colour their capabilities.

All I am saying is don't rush to use your preferred EQ, especially if you have just upgraded your gear. Give time to experience how the manufacturer intended it to sound like, and once you really know the new sound, add your own taste if necessary.

I will use another, exaggerated picture. Let's say you buy a convertible car. The manufacturer intended it to be a convertible so you can enjoy sunshine without a roof. You are more than free to install a permanent roof on it to match your personal taste, but does that not defeat the original purpose of the car?

I used provocative examples here on purpose to ignite your thinking. I still think there are scenarios where EQ can be necessary: certain weak recordings or a weak link in your audio chain. In general however I think the less EQ you use the better it is.

EQ and tone controls can be useful, but we have to be very careful using them as they can completely derail your ears and make you stuck in a puddle instead of discovering the vastness of the ocean. My two cents.

Hi Betula, just a few thoughts. Keeping in mind there are 2 sides of audio: tonality and technicalities.

1. EQ is used to change tonality and tonality only. It doesn't improve technicalities in any way. It doesn't give you more details or better imaging. Just simply the flavor. So, with correct usage of EQ, it is almost like having multiple headphones.
2. Using EQ really depends on each individual's taste. I, for example, love more bass. I'm guilty of that and I agree with your ketchup example. But others may have different usage. It doesn't have to be more bass. And this has nothing to do with how good of a gear one has. Higher-end gear should give you better technicalities (together with its own tonality). If a higher-end gear gives it more kick, that means that gear is also playing with its default frequency. Cause the 2C has flat bass frequency.
3. Regarding high-end gears, I find price is really a terrible benchmark of performance in this hobby. I have found many high-priced gears to perform very undeserving of their price tags (But I'm sure you are already aware of that). This hobby just relies on human biases way too much.
4. I disagree with your convertible car example. A sunroof has only one specific function, while audio is too much of an art. A headphone is a tool to listen to music. EQ is like an extension of that tool. With EQ, you have a choice of using it one day, and not using it another day. It is at your disposal. Also, some tracks may also have something missing or too much of something, then you can also EQ it. It gives you that flexibility. I play with my EQ settings all the time. For example, I love Julian Baker but I find one of her song has too much upper-mid, so I EQ it down a bit.

Btw, I just tried THX AAA 789 and its performance equals a lot of $1,500-2,500 amps I tried. It is a $350 amp. It can rival or even best some of the really famous & expensive amps I tried.

 

[betula]

Hi Betula, just a few thoughts. Keeping in mind there are 2 sides of audio: tonality and technicalities.

1. EQ is used to change tonality and tonality only. It doesn't improve technicalities in any way. It doesn't give you more details or better imaging. Just simply the flavor. So, with correct usage of EQ, it is almost like having multiple headphones.
2. Using EQ really depends on each individual's taste. I, for example, love more bass. I'm guilty of that and I agree with your ketchup example. But others may have different usage. It doesn't have to be more bass. And this has nothing to do with how good of a gear one has. Higher-end gear should give you better technicalities (together with its own tonality). If a higher-end gear gives it more kick, that means that gear is also playing with its default frequency. Cause the 2C has flat bass frequency.
3. Regarding high-end gears, I find price is really a terrible benchmark of performance in this hobby. I have found many high-priced gears to perform very undeserving of their price tags (But I'm sure you are already aware of that). This hobby just relies on human biases way too much.
4. I disagree with your convertible car example. A sunroof has only one specific function, while audio is too much of an art. A headphone is a tool to listen to music. EQ is like an extension of that tool. With EQ, you have a choice of using it one day, and not using it another day. It is at your disposal. Also, some tracks may also have something missing or too much of something, then you can also EQ it. It gives you that flexibility. I play with my EQ settings all the time. For example, I love Julian Baker but I find one of her song has too much upper-mid, so I EQ it down a bit.

Btw, I just tried THX AAA 789 and its performance equals a lot of $1,500-2,500 amps I tried. It is a $350 amp. It can rival or even best some of the really famous & expensive amps I tried.

1, I agree, but I think you still need to be careful with the amount of EQ you use.
2, If I get it right, you agree with me here. The higher-end gear you have, the less ketchup you need. Ketchup can be anything else in this example, not necessarily just bass.
3, You are right, price/performance ratio can be very, very different. Some £500 gear can sound better than some £2000 gear. But this is a sensitive ground to step on. In general I think we can say a £2000 amp will sound better than a £500 one, however there are some exceptions. It also very much depends on personal preference.
4, My sun-roof example is not perfect. Like any other examples it just gives you a starting point. All I am saying is, it is better be careful with EQ. It is very easy to overuse it.

 

[omniweltall]

I'll give you another example. The HD800. If we listen to it "as the manufacturer intended", then it is hard to stand that lack of bass and brightness. Maybe Sennheiser meant for us to use only for classical? OK, then we won't EQ it for classical. But what about other genres? Rock and modern pop, for example.

Here you have a headphone with amazing technicalities (resolution, soundstage, bass quality), but it has a problem with tonality. Instead of buying another headphone, you can EQ it to be something else that matches rock better.

 

[betula]

I'll give you another example. The HD800. If we listen to it "as the manufacturer intended", then it is hard to stand that lack of bass and brightness. Maybe Sennheiser meant for us to use only for classical? OK, then we won't EQ it for classical. But what about other genres? Rock and modern pop, for example.

Here you have a headphone with amazing technicalities (resolution, soundstage, bass quality), but it has a problem with tonality. Instead of buying another headphone, you can EQ it to be something else that matches rock better.

Good point, but what would you enjoy more? A heavily EQ-d HD800 or a not/hardly EQ-d LCD2? People buy headphones for their music preferences. I would never buy HD800 since I am treble sensitive and I hardly ever listen to classical. Other people with other preference would choose HD800 over LCD2 any day.

I wouldn't want to force HD800 to sound like my preferred sound signature, if there are other headphones doing it effortlessly. I won't force a Rolls Royce Phantom to behave lake a Lamborghini Huracan if I can buy the Huracan.

 

[omniweltall]

The higher-end gear you have, the less ketchup you need.

When we say "higher-end" gear, what we mean is technicalities. Those gears should give you more resolution, widest/deepest soundstage, better imaging, and so forth. But in addition to that, each gear also imparts its tonality to the sound. A tube amp, for example.

And remember, when we talk about audio chain, synergy is the most important thing. If we find a gear makes us use less ketchup with a headphone, that means it has synergy with it. Most of the time, tonality wise. It doesn't mean the higher-end gear we have, must mean less ketchup we need. We may still ketchup if that gear doesn't synergize with the headphone. For example, EC Studio and HD800. You will still need lots of ketchup with that one, even though the Studio is an end-game amp.

 

[Terozzzz]

There may be another "why" to use EQ, everyone hearing is bit different.
Like i got slight hearing damage making a film about rock concert and my assistant forgot to take my ear plugs and after 3 songs i started to hear this funny donald duck sound and i got my hearing damaged.
2 weeks i could not hear right, everyone was talking like donald duck

but it got better but now i have this weird spike at 1-2khz and it hurts if i not dial it down 6Db. To me EQ is life saving.

 

[omniweltall]

Good point, but what would you enjoy more? A heavily EQ-d HD800 or a not/hardly EQ-d LCD2?

They are very different. Planar and Dynamics have their own strengths and flaws. No amount of EQ can make them become one another. I love them both

There may be another "why" to use EQ, everyone hearing is bit different.
Like i got slight hearing damage making a film about rock concert and my assistant forgot to take my ear plugs and after 3 songs i started to hear this funny donald duck sound and i got my hearing damaged.
2 weeks i could not hear right, everyone was talking like donald duck

but it got better but now i have this weird spike at 1-2khz and it hurts if i not dial it down 6Db. To me EQ is life saving.

Sorry bout your hearing. Agree with your point.

 

[BrotherKathos]

Btw, I just tried THX AAA 789 and its performance equals a lot of $1,500-2,500 amps I tried. It is a $350 amp. It can rival or even best some of the really famous & expensive amps I tried.

I’m happy to read your impression of the thx aaa 789. I’ve got one as well and think its phenomenal with my lcd2c and mimby eitr combo. I’ve never heard thousand dollar plus headphone amps so I can’t compare the sound quality to them, but I’ve read others who have had similar impressions to you as well with that amp. I can compare it with high end home audio amps I have like Krell that do cost quite alot more than even most high end head amps though and in many ways the lcd2c with thx amp outperforms the krell amp with my home speaker setup.

I’ve also read people purposely stepping down from a $2400 dac yggy, to the $250 mimby, because they prefer the signature of the mimby better. I agree with Betula that its best to be careful with eq, but still think that those who dismiss it outright are shorting themselves. To bring the ketchup analogy back its like getting a burger without ketchup and refusing to add any because they forgot to add it or did not put enough on in the kitchen. Of course you can drown the burger if you are not careful, but most of us know how much is needed to improve the taste of our food.

 

[omniweltall]

I’m happy to read your impression of the thx aaa 789. I’ve got one as well and think its phenomenal with my lcd2c and mimby eitr combo. I’ve never heard thousand dollar plus headphone amps so I can’t compare the sound quality to them, but I’ve read others who have had similar impressions to you as well with that amp. I can compare it with high end home audio amps I have like Krell that do cost quite alot more than even most high end head amps though and in many ways the lcd2c with thx amp outperforms the krell amp with my home speaker setup.

I’ve also read people purposely stepping down from a $2400 dac yggy, to the $250 mimby, because they prefer the signature of the mimby better. I agree with Betula that its best to be careful with eq, but still think that those who dismiss it outright are shorting themselves. To bring the ketchup analogy back its like getting a burger without ketchup and refusing to add any because they forgot to add it or did not put enough on in the kitchen. Of course you can drown the burger if you are not careful, but most of us know how much is needed to improve the taste of our food.

Brother, we have the same combo. I'm listening to the mimby+789+2C right now. Lovely sound. I'm quite amazed with this amp. Sub bass and details really come alive.

Try listening to Nils Lofgren's 'Keith don't go' with this combo. Ha!

 

[betula]

When we say "higher-end" gear, what we mean is technicalities. Those gears should give you more resolution, widest/deepest soundstage, better imaging, and so forth. But in addition to that, each gear also imparts its tonality to the sound. A tube amp, for example.

And remember, when we talk about audio chain, synergy is the most important thing. If we find a gear makes us use less ketchup with a headphone, that means it has synergy with it. Most of the time, tonality wise. It doesn't mean the higher-end gear we have, must mean less ketchup we need. We may still ketchup if that gear doesn't synergize with the headphone. For example, EC Studio and HD800. You will still need lots of ketchup with that one, even though the Studio is an end-game amp.

I think if you want to 'ketchup' an EC Studio, than you made the wrong choice and you should look elsewhere instead of trying to adjust what it is meant to be.

 

[omniweltall]

Btw, great discussion, Betula Always enjoyed your presence here in the 2C thread.

I think both you and I have our points. Ultimately it depends on each individual. It is audio we're talking about. What's important is we all enjoy music.

 

[omniweltall]

I think if you want to 'ketchup' an EC Studio, than you made the wrong choice and you should look elsewhere instead of trying to adjust what it is meant to be.

I was using EC Studio only as an example to your "with higher-end gear means less ketchup". EC Studio is an end-game amp, but bad synergy if paired with HD800. But it will pair perfectly with HD650, for example.

 

[betula]

Btw, great discussion, Betula Always enjoyed your presence here in the 2C thread.

I think both you and I have our points. Ultimately it depends on each individual. It is audio we're talking about. What's important is we all enjoy music.

Completely agreed here. It is boring if you avoid clashing different opinions. We share the love of HQ audio, we share the love of the 2C. Anything else above this is like cherries on the cake.

 

[BrotherKathos]

And as far as not needing to add anything to the eq based on gear quality I’m not sure if I agree there. In the high end restaurant world, even in top Michelin star restaurants they give you the option to add condiments to your food after it leaves the kitchen. I just had a very nice Olive oil poached cod under a crab risotto last night, and while the dish was great out of the kitchen it needed just a bit of fresh cracked pepper to complete it. Maybe others would have left it alone but to me the pepper was necessary. Audio and dining satisfaction are both equally subjective and they can also change easily. Maybe if i got the dish again I would prefer it with no pepper, but then again maybe not.

 

[betula]

And as far as not needing to add anything to the eq based on gear quality I’m not sure if I agree there. In the high end restaurant world, even in top Michelin star restaurants they give you the option to add condiments to your food after it leaves the kitchen. I just had a very nice Olive oil poached cod under a crab risotto last night, and while the dish was great out of the kitchen it needed just a bit of fresh cracked pepper to complete it. Maybe others would have left it alone but to me the pepper was necessary. Audio and dining satisfaction are both equally subjective and they can also change easily. Maybe if i got the dish again I would prefer it with no pepper, but then again maybe not.

Sure. But if you never try to let your heavy preferences go, you might never experience a higher level of satisfaction.
In the end your personal preference overwrites everything. But you must stay open to experience new impressions without colouring it with your own preference first.