AT W-1000s/L-1000s v.s. MDR R10s and Simular Quality Available HPs.

[WulfmanJax]

Ok, as alot of you know i'm trying to put together my first REAL excellent sound system. I have everything except the headphones. I've ordered some R10s from Amazon that are "temporarily" out of stock. I have a feeling they're not going to be getting any more in though.

If this happens i'll be looking for something simular. So:

1. What's the difference between the AT L-3000s and W 1000s? If it's just the leather then that's a little too much extra $$$ just for leather...

and

2. How do they compare with the R10 and simular high quality headphones (like Grado PS-1, Stax Omega II, etc.)

BTW my system is a Rega Jupiter, SinglePower Supra with 6SN7 tubes, both with VD Nite II power cords and Nite II ICs. I basically want some reviews and advice on where to buy these things. I know Audio Cubes has the ATs and TTVJ has the PS-1s. I can't afford the Omega and it wouldn't work with my Supra, but reviews are still welcome.

 

[ayt999]

what's an ATH-L1000?

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayt999 what's an ATH-L1000?

ATH L1000

 

[darkclouds]

I think you need to slow down a bit there. It's great that you can put a fantastic system together the first time around, but I'm not sure if you know what you're looking for sound wise. Stringing a system together based on top dollar may not get you what you want or need. You should try out a pair of Grado (SR325 or RS-1) and a pair of Senn 600/650 first. Get your baseline, then decide if either one of them are lacking in some area and figure out where you want to go from there. By the way, both the RS-1 and Senn 650 are top notch cans, at any price.

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WulfmanJax ATH L1000

It's ATH-L3000, aka "the Leatherhead".

FYI, to avoid confusion.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkclouds I think you need to slow down a bit there. It's great that you can put a fantastic system together the first time around, but I'm not sure if you know what you're looking for sound wise. Stringing a system together based on top dollar may not get you what you want or need. You should try out a pair of Grado (SR325 or RS-1) and a pair of Senn 600/650 first. Get your baseline, then decide if either one of them are lacking in some area and figure out where you want to go from there. By the way, both the RS-1 and Senn 650 are top notch cans, at any price.

Believe me, i WISH i could do that. But doing that would mean me losing my chance to own either some MDR-10s or L-1000s. because the R10s are out of production and L-1000s are an EXTREMLY limited edition.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg It's ATH-L3000, aka "the Leatherhead". FYI, to avoid confusion.

Yes, you're right. Please excuse a poor n00b.

 

[Wmcmanus]

I think what darkclouds is getting at, is that we "old timers" at head-fi have faced this sort of question before and have found, generally, that:

1) before we can give solid advice about which headphones, amps, or sources would work best for you, we would benefit greatly (as would you, in the end) by having an understanding of your particular sonic preferences, as well as your musical preferences, and

2) even if we had a pretty good idea of what you might be looking for and could come up with a "best fit" system for you (in your case, you have all but the headphones, and a lot of nice gear at that), you would still benefit by a little experimentation, even if ever so briefly as you move up the headphone audio chain.

You can learn a lot about the R10's, Omega II's, PS-1, L-3000, etc., by searching the archives at head-fi and reading what people have said about them. There generally is no consensus so in the end, you will have to make your own decisions based on imperfect information just like the rest of us. But given all of that, my 2 cents would be that the L3000's are considerably better than the W1000's but if you're willing to spend L3000 kind of money, you'll probably like the R10's better. Most people do. Not everyone, but most. As between the R10's and the Sony Qualia 010, the jury is still out. Mikhail has heard both with his amps and may be the best source of info at this point, given that you are using a Supra 6SN7. Unless you want to build an electrostat system, the Omega II's are not in the running at this point.

 

[Chefguru]

I own the r10, heard the 010 around 9 times in nyc (hehe in a row to) and use to own the ath-w2002 (suppose to be simlar to the l3000), rs-1 (suppose to be simlar to the ps-1) and hp-2 (suppose to be simlar to the ps-1). Also I have heard a rega jupiter (sweeet source). On top of that I own a tube amp (ear hp4) and although it's maybe not as good or maybe better then yours, I feel have a fair ground to give you advice.

Basically what has been said before is true, it depences on your taste and music preferance but almost all of my headphones have been purchased blindly (r10 and rs-1 excluded) and I never was to unhappy or unable to back out of it with a sale (sometimes profitable to).
Because of this I have (or use to at lest) a high rate of selling and trading gear with in a short period of time.
I personally think the r10 is the best headphone i've ever heard, 010 has a chance to take the crown but i've only heard it on a not so great source so i can't say much.
Basically the only way we here at head-fi can help you is if you can answer these questions
Do you want a netural sound or a colored sound.
How important is soundstage
How important is mid
How important is bass
How important is slam or melo
(any thing else you want ?)
I would normally add a few more catg's (like detail) but most of these high end cans have very high detail levels and you can't really give a plus to either of them in that area.
Basically if you want to go with a colored sound (or at lest your not bothered by color), big soundstage, big mid's with a meloish sound : r10 is your can
If you want to go with a netural sounding, soundstage is important to you, and a big mid range: l3000 or 010 may work for you
If you want to go with a netural sound with alot of slam and bass : ps-1 is your ticket,

I can go on like this for ever so basicaly just figure out what you need and get back to us.

Sorry for all the typo's

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus I think what darkclouds is getting at, is that we "old timers" at head-fi have faced this sort of question before and have found, generally, that: 1) before we can give solid advice about which headphones, amps, or sources would work best for you, we would benefit greatly (as would you, in the end) by having an understanding of your particular sonic preferences, as well as your musical preferences, and 2) even if we had a pretty good idea of what you might be looking for and could come up with a "best fit" system for you (in your case, you have all but the headphones, and a lot of nice gear at that), you would still benefit by a little experimentation, even if ever so briefly as you move up the headphone audio chain. You can learn a lot about the R10's, Omega II's, PS-1, L-3000, etc., by searching the archives at head-fi and reading what people have said about them. There generally is no consensus so in the end, you will have to make your own decisions based on imperfect information just like the rest of us. But given all of that, my 2 cents would be that the L3000's are considerably better than the W1000's but if you're willing to spend L3000 kind of money, you'll probably like the R10's better. Most people do. Not everyone, but most. As between the R10's and the Sony Qualia 010, the jury is still out. Mikhail has heard both with his amps and may be the best source of info at this point, given that you are using a Supra 6SN7. Unless you want to build an electrostat system, the Omega II's are not in the running at this point.

1. Once again, that would be fine, if i wasn't a n00b and could actually describe to you what i want. I had the same problem, probably more so with guitars and amps. Mainly because, as different as certain headphones, sources, and hp amps will sound, guitars and guitar amps are a whole different beasts. There are some guitars that sound different as night and day and even someone who knew nothing about guitars could hear a huge difference.

But, since i'm experienced in knowing what i like in my guitars/amp tone, maybe i can describe how i like that:

-I love mids. Not the muddy, non-clear kind, but that smooth and creamy kind. If you've ever heard Clapton's solo in I Feel Free or any of Brian May's solos (from Queen who, btw, has THE greatest recorded guitar tone ever), you know what i mean.

-I like bass, but it's not extremely important. I think great bass is ESSENTIAL on some styles of music, but too much bass will make it sound flubby and throbbing. A good example of bass i like is Metallica's live sound (which in contrast their studio work is not half as good) or even their Black Album. I think bass type is much more important than the amount. I like a tight, clean bass sound. Think alot of Tool's stuff.

-I love shimmery treble. Not high and piercing, or jangly and thin (like you get from a telecaster guitar) but smooth and singing. A good example would be Eric Johnson's tone. If you've ever heard his Cliffs of Dover, you know what i mean. Another good example is Radiohead's Subterranean Homesick Alien.

-I love a 3D sound.... I assume this is probably considered "soundstage" in headphone lingo. That kind of sound that has a complexity to it, like every note i play is made up of alot of little tones all working together to create one beautiful sound. I think a great example of what i'm describing is Van Halen's Ain't Talkin Bout Love or Unchained. Oddly it's very hard to get a great recorded guitar tone, even with great amps.

-As far as mellow v.s. intense goes, it depends on the music and my mood at the time. I really have no preference here. I guess i can say that i would want something in the middle. That did neither perfectly, but could do both great.

2. but like i said i have no time to experiment if i wan the L-3000s or R10s. And i really don't think i'll be able to get the R10s. This would be alot easier if i had the luxery of experimenting though.

Thanks for the review, that's exactly what i'm trying to do. To make a half blind decision based on information. I'm going to like whatever i get i imagine, but i want to TRY and get the best i can get for me. I'm sure if i was able to try out every headphone/source/amp/etc. i would probably have a very different system right now as it all comes down to budget and personal preference. But i appreciate all of you guys' help as it's been invaluable. I would've been lost if not for this place.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chefguru I own the r10, heard the 010 around 9 times in nyc (hehe in a row to) and use to own the ath-w2002 (suppose to be simlar to the l3000), rs-1 (suppose to be simlar to the ps-1) and hp-2 (suppose to be simlar to the ps-1). Also I have heard a rega jupiter (sweeet source). On top of that I own a tube amp (ear hp4) and although it's maybe not as good or maybe better then yours, I feel have a fair ground to give you advice. Basically what has been said before is true, it depences on your taste and music preferance but almost all of my headphones have been purchased blindly (r10 and rs-1 excluded) and I never was to unhappy or unable to back out of it with a sale (sometimes profitable to). Because of this I have (or use to at lest) a high rate of selling and trading gear with in a short period of time. I personally think the r10 is the best headphone i've ever heard, 010 has a chance to take the crown but i've only heard it on a not so great source so i can't say much. Basically the only way we here at head-fi can help you is if you can answer these questions Do you want a netural sound or a colored sound. How important is soundstage How important is mid How important is bass How important is slam or melo (any thing else you want ?) I would normally add a few more catg's (like detail) but most of these high end cans have very high detail levels and you can't really give a plus to either of them in that area. Basically if you want to go with a colored sound (or at lest your not bothered by color), big soundstage, big mid's with a meloish sound : r10 is your can If you want to go with a netural sounding, soundstage is important to you, and a big mid range: l3000 or 010 may work for you If you want to go with a netural sound with alot of slam and bass : ps-1 is your ticket, I can go on like this for ever so basicaly just figure out what you need and get back to us. Sorry for all the typo's

Thanks alot. It's stuff like this that's really helpful. Yes, i want more than anything to get those R10s. If Amazon doesn't get any in though, i'm afraid my chances are nil as i can't spend the full $4000 at the other places. I answered most of those preference questions in my last post. As for colored or neutral i can't really answer that. With guitars and amps, everything is colored. I think the closest thing with guitars/amps to colored or neutral is pickups. Pickups, literally, "pick up" the vibrations of the guitar strings and send it through the amp. So naturally pickups affect sound alot. They can add/subtract ALOT of frequencies and all have their own personalities as well. Then there are pickups that are pretty even response that let the full personalites of the guitar and amp shine through.

The proble with even that comparison though is i haven't experimented with pickups much. It's kinda hard to tell which are more neutral as you don't know how a guitar/amp would sound without them. But, as a guess, i think i'd like neutral better. The problem with coloring sound is that it'll work for alot of things, and then suck for just as many. And with my broad tastes in music (ranging from death metal to jazz and classical) i think colored would hurt as much as help.

EDIT: And to everyone who reads this, i don't care if you have the best system or even a good system or whatever. If you have tried or own ANY of these, just give me your initial impression. It is a good idea to tell me how much experience you've had with them though.

 

[smokey]

I own the Leatherhead (AT-3000), the W-2002, and the R-10. I've posted quick impressions before, but I'll do it again.

The Sony R-10 is an excellent headphone, that soundstages better than anything I've heard before. Depending on the amp, it may be a little light in the bass department. I've heard it through a Singlepower amp, and it did a good job of helping this perceived deficiency.

The Leatherhead is also an excellent headphone. However it doesn't soundstage like the Sony. On the other hand I think it is better in the frequency extremes, and perhaps a touch more dynamic. It also smells nice.

The W-2002 is supposed to be better sounding than the w-1000, and I'll tell you that in my experience the Leatherhead is better by a good margin than the W-2002.

Take all of this with a grain of salt. Others have differing opinions.

But all of this said, I'm currently listening to my Blockhead with the new modules, and I'm very happy with the way it now sounds.

To me the best of the bunch is a Stax Omega-2 with a modified, tube rectified, Black Gated Blue Hawaii. But good luck in getting one made, and then keeping it running.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokey I own the Leatherhead (AT-3000), the W-2002, and the R-10. I've posted quick impressions before, but I'll do it again. The Sony R-10 is an excellent headphone, that soundstages better than anything I've heard before. Depending on the amp, it may be a little light in the bass department. I've heard it through a Singlepower amp, and it did a good job of helping this perceived deficiency. The Leatherhead is also an excellent headphone. However it doesn't soundstage like the Sony. On the other hand I think it is better in the frequency extremes, and perhaps a touch more dynamic. It also smells nice. The W-2002 is supposed to be better sounding than the w-1000, and I'll tell you that in my experience the Leatherhead is better by a good margin than the W-2002. Take all of this with a grain of salt. Others have differing opinions. But all of this said, I'm currently listening to my Blockhead with the new modules, and I'm very happy with the way it now sounds. To me the best of the bunch is a Stax Omega-2 with a modified, tube rectified, Black Gated Blue Hawaii. But good luck in getting one made, and then keeping it running.

Thanks. This is EXACTLY what i wanted to get out of this thread. Good reviews and just an IDEA of what these sound like. Lemme ask a few questions:

-Are the L-3000s, in your opinion, REALLY worth $2300 (based on sound alone)? I mean, i thought $2000 was too much to spend on the R10s, but after i found out they retailed and often sold for $4000 i tried to jump on that price.

-How big of a soundstage difference are there in the R10s and L3000s? Is it THAT much of a difference? Or is it to where only really great ears will hear a big discernable difference?

-What do you mean "better in the frequency extremes" and "a touch more dynamic"?

 

[TrevorNetwork]

Smokey:

Are the L3000s really that much better than the W2002s? Also, can you please elaborate the differences. I am a bit suprised considering the L3000 was supposedly a minor modifcation to the W2002s.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Thanks for describing your sonic preferences. That helped a great deal.

Since you're interested in buying very quickly, I'd say the R10's are the headphones for you. If you love creamy mids, get the R10. If you are not too concerned about extreme lows (which, as Smokey has stated, can be solved with the right amplification for the R10's such as your Supra 6SN7), then you'll be in for a real treat with the R10's. For the record, I've heard some of the deepest, most impactful bass notes ever in certain recordings with the R10's. Much has been written and debated about the R10's supposed lack of bass. The arguments seem to be never ending. Those who've had good experiences in matching the R10's to the right type of amplification (Hirsch, myself, several others) now see it as a non issue, but of course this comes at some expense. Again, Mikhail has heard the R10's with the Supra 6SN7 and many other amps, so he may be in a position to give you some feedback about the bass response with this combo. I've used a Singlepower SDS with the R10's as my reference system for about a year and never felt that it was bass shy.

The R10's do so much so extremely well and so very little "wrong". In my opinion, they really do nothing wrong per se. The L3000 are perhaps a little more extended in the upper register, but to my ears they are not nearly as pleasing as the R10's treble. By comparison, the L3000's seem very forward and at times, even bright or "clinical" and overemphasized. So while what Smokey has mentioned about the frequency extremes being more extended for the L3000 may well be true (I kind of agree), I don't necessarily think this is a point in favor of the L3000's. In some ways the L3000's are more "lively" than the R10's but lack some of the midrange lushness and also the ability to seperate instuments and present a broad and deep soundstage.

From what you've described, I'd say the PS-1's are not for you. They have incredible bass response, and unlike a lot of other bass heavy headhones, they produce an incredibly clean and clear bass. They're quite nice in most other respects as well, but the bass is what hits you and is what you always remember after a PS-1 listening session. From your description, it would seem that if you had to choose, you would prefer world class mids rather than world class bass. This is where the R10's shine, and by a wide margin relative to other top dynamic headphones (I've heard them all except the Qualia).