Are cables like pipes?

[V-Duh]

Here's the situation:
Assume you've recabled your can with top-notch stuff - you've "plumbed" it with new smooth copper.
Now assume that the signal goes thru your new plumbing and hits some mediocre OEM stuff for a short distance before it gets to the drivers - kinda like a an old nasty corroded cast iron pipe.
Did that nice water flow thru the copper just get messed up by the cast iron? Should you have just left well enough alone and saved your money
for beer?

I can't seem to figure out if it's useless to cable anything less than 100% with the same cable from component to component.
Can anyone shed some light on this?

And PLEASE, no plumber's butt.

 

[QQQ]

You must just believe it. Never try to think about it

 

[RedLeader]

I think it's always a good idea to save your money for beer.

Though I'm a Canadian, so your mileage may vary.

 

[883dave]

If you had of spent your money on beer, you would not need to ask this question. (although seeing as where you are Everclear might be a better choice than beer)

 

[Lock]

As I understand it. Every cable will have some level of resistance. If you have a cable that is crap and very long it will sound worse than a cable that is crap and very short. The quality of the signal will deteriorate over the distance.

If you upgrade the cable to your cans, and you 'minimise' the part of the signal to the driver that is low quality then you minimise this deterioration (don't get me wrong good cables deteriorate over distance too). The crap bit at the end 'rusty old pipe' will still be a bottle neck and screw things up a little. Provided the rest of your set up is good, you may see a benefit from updating your cables. With analogue stuff I really could hear the difference between budget and premium interconnects, or budget vs premium speaker cable for example. Digital cables seem to make little difference. I guess digital is digital regardless of the cable......

 

[V-Duh]

That makes sense from a resistance standpoint. So I guess that means that SQ is effected by the resistance of the cable and the amount of EM/RFI interference the cable lets in. Mediocre copper v. good copper v. silver v. gold v. unobtainium. All of these materials must have different resistances to affect the SQ in different ways. Or I could be blowing smoke...

Any additional thoughts anyone?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lock /img/forum/go_quote.gif As I understand it. Every cable will have some level of resistance. If you have a cable that is crap and very long it will sound worse than a cable that is crap and very short. The quality of the signal will deteriorate over the distance.

 

[V-Duh]

It appears that most northerners have some alcoholic beverage on the brain at all times. Myself - a good microbrew or high end rum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedLeader /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think it's always a good idea to save your money for beer. Though I'm a Canadian, so your mileage may vary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you had of spent your money on beer, you would not need to ask this question. (although seeing as where you are Everclear might be a better choice than beer)

 

[LeonvB]

Capacitance and resistance are the main criteria to look at for cables. As both are expressed in units per metre, short is better. And only for long runs, shielding gets important.
As you're in the US, I'd look for suitable Belden cable for whatever your application is with good connectors (fi. WBT). You'd have to go a lot higher in price to find a significant upgrade.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-Duh /img/forum/go_quote.gif That makes sense from a resistance standpoint. So I guess that means that SQ is effected by the resistance of the cable and the amount of EM/RFI interference the cable lets in. Mediocre copper v. good copper v. silver v. gold v. unobtainium. All of these materials must have different resistances to affect the SQ in different ways. Or I could be blowing smoke... Any additional thoughts anyone?

Maybe so. But you'll also have to consider every wire in your house and other electrical device plugged into it as well as your local grid. As well as every solder joint in your gear, the leads on discrete components, solar flares (ionization of the atmosphere affects RFI) and the time of day (depending on the ionization of the F2 layer), local broadcasting towers, cosmic background radiation, and several thousand other considerations. You can keep going down the scale of relevance into an intellectual dead end. You'll never have two identical sets of conditions, ever. Also consider that components age and change in value, which can be measured with a DMM, by the way. And you change, too. Your state of mind, how much sleep you've had, your blood pressure, the temperature, ambient noise, and many other things affect how you perceive sound.

It is my opinion that chasing these down is a very, very expensive and time consuming dead end.

My thinking is that you have to accept the possibilities for what they are and enjoy your listening anyway. Maybe some tweak would help. Then again, a sun spot might negate it for a week.

It isn't worth the trouble. I think the best approach is to use cables that are sturdy and well made and resign yourself to the fact that it might not be everything.

 

[Lock]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe so. But you'll also have to consider every wire in your house and other electrical device plugged into it as well as your local grid. As well as every solder joint in your gear, the leads on discrete components, solar flares (ionization of the atmosphere affects RFI) and the time of day (depending on the ionization of the F2 layer), local broadcasting towers, cosmic background radiation, and several thousand other considerations. You can keep going down the scale of relevance into an intellectual dead end. You'll never have two identical sets of conditions, ever. Also consider that components age and change in value, which can be measured with a DMM, by the way. And you change, too. Your state of mind, how much sleep you've had, your blood pressure, the temperature, ambient noise, and many other things affect how you perceive sound. It is my opinion that chasing these down is a very, very expensive and time consuming dead end. My thinking is that you have to accept the possibilities for what they are and enjoy your listening anyway. Maybe some tweak would help. Then again, a sun spot might negate it for a week. It isn't worth the trouble. I think the best approach is to use cables that are sturdy and well made and resign yourself to the fact that it might not be everything.

Totally correct, every word but I would still recommend building to the strongest part of your system.

If you have a very good balanced amp and a very good set of balanced speakers it would be a real shame if you used a set of budget blanced cables.

If you have great headphones and a really good source then buy some good cables. They don't have to be too expensive. If you have great headphones but an average source, upgrading the cables may make little difference, may as well wait until you have a decent source. Otherwise, as said you will always be chasing perfection and wasting money on tweaks that make little difference to your listening experience.

 

[Carmantom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe so. But you'll also have to consider every wire in your house and other electrical device plugged into it as well as your local grid. As well as every solder joint in your gear, the leads on discrete components, solar flares (ionization of the atmosphere affects RFI) and the time of day (depending on the ionization of the F2 layer), local broadcasting towers, cosmic background radiation, and several thousand other considerations. You can keep going down the scale of relevance into an intellectual dead end. You'll never have two identical sets of conditions, ever. Also consider that components age and change in value, which can be measured with a DMM, by the way. And you change, too. Your state of mind, how much sleep you've had, your blood pressure, the temperature, ambient noise, and many other things affect how you perceive sound. It is my opinion that chasing these down is a very, very expensive and time consuming dead end. My thinking is that you have to accept the possibilities for what they are and enjoy your listening anyway. Maybe some tweak would help. Then again, a sun spot might negate it for a week. It isn't worth the trouble. I think the best approach is to use cables that are sturdy and well made and resign yourself to the fact that it might not be everything.

Uncle Eric

Thanks for one of the more sane answers on this never ending subject. I too believe too many factors that come into play and their relationships to each other.
Add to that another belief I have, which is we understand way less about the science of sound than we think we know.

 

[V-Duh]

Interesting replies! Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.
Being an engineer I spend a lot of time mulling over variables and often just end up assuming most of them out of the equation.
I got through a whole engineering education without a single electronics course so I'm limited to a far off memory of physics - obviously adding to my difficulty.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedLeader /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think it's always a good idea to save your money for beer. Though I'm a Canadian, so your kilometerage may vary, eh.

Fixed.

I don't think cables are like pipes.

Fluid dynamics and electrical resistance are two very different things.

-Ed