Analyst says music doesn't matter: selling cookies is the point.
Feb 21, 2008 at 1:58 AM Post #16 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by tylernol /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Music piracy is a great thing. Sucks for the artists, but you know what, this **** has to end.



I completely agree with you about the "...has to end" part. I've been an enthusiastic cheerleader for the end of the recording industry as we know it. It was my hope that the short term losses to musicians would be made up by a much improved landscape for the artists once the suits were kicked to the curb.

But predictions like the one I cited in my OP give me pause. I sincerely hope we are not leaping out of the frying pan and into the fire. It will be a tragedy if musicians go from being slaves to the recording industry to being slaves to the advertising/PR industry. Do you want to download a track and discover an ad jingle for Rize Krappies embedded in it?
 
Feb 21, 2008 at 3:36 AM Post #18 of 64
Your rant seems like typical cultural pessimism to me. Quote:

Originally Posted by DrBenway /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There was a time when you could flip on the radio (WNEW-FM where I grew up), and hear great new music.


for instance is certainly true in a way.Once upon a time FM radio was way better than nowadays (although we do have a decent independent campus radio in our area).
I agree, FM radio is mostly dead, but who cares.LastFM et al are better than FM ever was anyway.Way more diverse than even our strictly noncommercial radio stations of the seventies ever were.
Panta rhei, nothing remains the same, but change isn't necessarily for the worse.
 
Feb 21, 2008 at 4:41 AM Post #19 of 64
yeah this predicted reality is a present reality, to extents

and I think his forecast is wrong

with this massive advent of file sharing and the blow that has been dealing to big labels, and the slew of artists releasing their albums free to the public now, I think we'll see a resurgence in the making of albums, not singles.. and the option that artists don't have to go through big labels and so the whole selling out to mass advertising contracts etc is out of the picture
 
Feb 21, 2008 at 4:45 AM Post #20 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Your rant seems like typical cultural pessimism to me. for instance is certainly true in a way.Once upon a time FM radio was way better than nowadays (although we do have a decent independent campus radio in our area).
I agree, FM radio is mostly dead, but who cares.



I do! When something of value disappears, I miss it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma /img/forum/go_quote.gif
LastFM et al are better than FM ever was anyway.


NetRadio is promising, and may yet be better than FM was in the heyday of freeform radio. We ain't there yet, to put it mildly. First of all, I'm deeply suspicious of any algorithm that purports to know what I want to hear.

Second, nothing online (short of flac or shn downloads) comes close, to my ears, to the SQ of a strong FM signal through a good tuner and sound system. The best streaming quality I've found is 320K MP3. There is very little of that available, and it's still not good enough. I just don't believe that it's worth trading SQ for selection and availability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Panta rhei, nothing remains the same, but change isn't necessarily for the worse.


Neither is it necessarily for the better. Frozen, concentrated orange juice is ubiquitously available and inexpensive. It ain't exactly fresh-squeezed, it it?
 
Feb 21, 2008 at 4:59 AM Post #21 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminette /img/forum/go_quote.gif
[...]with this massive advent of file sharing and the blow that has been dealing to big labels, and the slew of artists releasing their albums free to the public now, I think we'll see a resurgence in the making of albums, not singles..


That seems counter to the reality we have been seeing. After decades of being forced to buy albums that were mostly garbage, consumers have understandably taken to cherry-picking exactly the tracks they want, and leaving behind the dross. My sense is that this practise is here to stay. I'd love to be wrong about that. For me to be wrong about that, though, there would have to be a return to making albums as albums, not as singles-plus-filler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminette /img/forum/go_quote.gif
and the option that artists don't have to go through big labels and so the whole selling out to mass advertising contracts etc is out of the picture


I think that there's nothing wrong with wanting to reach a mass audience, and artists will still have to deal with the media machine in order to do that. Sure, Radiohead took a chance and succeeded with In Rainbows. But that was after more than a decade of building their brand the old-fashioned way. Compare the results they got with the response to Saul Williams's similar experiment, which failed miserably.

I stand by my earlier post: pure indy distribution will be self-limitiing. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not multi-platinum sales, either. And the mainstream will continue to be an ever-growing cesspool.
 
Feb 21, 2008 at 6:37 AM Post #22 of 64
Keep in mind the recording industry is really very small, practically a rounding error in the economy at large. Its entire yearly revenues are less than 2 weeks' worth of telecom revenues alone. Using music as a loss leader makes a lot of sense.

The only reason politicians pay attention to the music and movie industries is the glamor of musicians and actors, and how it rubs off on them. Otherwise, it's really a question of the tail wagging the dog, their influence is completely unwarranted.
 
Feb 21, 2008 at 8:19 AM Post #23 of 64
I have to agree those that argue the gaint music labels are on the way out. While I can see the trend the article talks about continuing. A local artist with a dirt cheap and global reach by way of the internet distrubuting their music directly to the consumer is what keeps the big 5 label execs up at night. The big 5 are desperate to keep their cut and stay in the middle. An article about the music industry that doesn't mention the internet is pretty useless. I'm all for buying music but denying that technology has changed how we use culture is just backward.
 
Feb 23, 2008 at 7:11 AM Post #24 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by wower /img/forum/go_quote.gif
A local artist with a dirt cheap and global reach by way of the internet distrubuting their music directly to the consumer is what keeps the big 5 label execs up at night.


Probably not. It takes a lot of marketing effort to get publicized, something most artists are not very competent at, and will need intermediaries (another word for middleman) to do it. Thus the studios are not quaking in their boots. One or two new artist a year might make it based on word of mouth, at best.

What they are really afraid of is being replaced by other middlemen, Apple's iTunes Music Store foremost among them, and that's a very rational fear. Apple gives back an estimated $0.70 out of each $0.99 to the labels (the exact amount is a secret). They could easily offer musicians terms like $0.30 out of $0.99 triple their own profit margin and the artist's royalty by cutting out the RIAA parasites, and give a big finger to those pesky labels and their unreasonable demands.
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 12:48 AM Post #25 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by majid /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Probably not. It takes a lot of marketing effort to get publicized, something most artists are not very competent at, and will need intermediaries (another word for middleman) to do it. Thus the studios are not quaking in their boots. What they are really afraid of is being replaced by other middlemen, Apple's iTunes Music Store foremost among them, and that's a very rational fear.


Absolutely. Cult artists will be able to reach their core audience, and perhaps expand it a bit. But success on a mass scale requires access to the machinery. In Rainbows leveraged years of traditional marketing. When an artist like Kristin Hersh gives away a record, it has nowhere near the reach of a corporate-fueled juggernaut like Radiohead.

As I said in a previous post, I'm afraid we may be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. The marketing machine is still firmly in place, so why wouldn't the industry just stop looking for talent and simply build it from scratch? They seem to be doing just fine farting out gas like Briney, Justin and Miley. Why go looking for the next Hendrix or Dylan? Especially when actual musicians ask all sorts of annoying questions and are arrogant enough to think they should have some control over what they sound like?
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 2:14 AM Post #26 of 64
There was a google video documentary that I watched on "Why Big Companies Fail" and it talked about exactly what certain industries/companies have done, and the resulting loss of marketshare/integrity/total collapse. The RIAA is doing the first thing wrong... not changing. Not wanting to accept certain things and not working with the change.

This article is what got me thinking about this, demonbaby: When Pigs Fly: The Death of Oink, the Birth of Dissent, and a Brief History of Record Industry Suicide.

The problem I see is that they own things, so they can really halt the process wayyy down. No "reason" for them to change
rolleyes.gif


Tyler
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 3:59 AM Post #27 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by majid /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Probably not. It takes a lot of marketing effort to get publicized, something most artists are not very competent at, and will need intermediaries (another word for middleman) to do it. Thus the studios are not quaking in their boots. One or two new artist a year might make it based on word of mouth, at best.


At first I completely disagreed but then I took a step back and realized we are talking about different things. You are talking about local artists gaining mainstream attention needing publicity, which I guess is true to the extend I listen to main stream music. I, on the other hand, was talking about local artists cutting out there own nitch in the world and being happy with it (because through the internet, without the middle men, they can connect to their audience). So we are at cross purposes with what we are talking about and neither is incorrent. Our discussion hinges on the meaning of "Make it" or "making it" which, with my limited understanding of semantics, won't get into here. I don't know where you see the music industry going, but with the costs of making a record falling, and global distrabution bascially being a couple of key strokes away, I see a proliferation of indie artists at the expense of "mainstream bands". A real paradigm shift. If suing fans and saying P2P users are terrorists isn't a sign of desperation - instead of, say, finding new talent people might actually want to buy - I don't know how to convince you.
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 4:16 AM Post #28 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by wower /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You are talking about local artists gaining mainstream attention needing publicity, which I guess is true to the extend I listen to main stream music. I, on the other hand, was talking about local artists cutting out there own nitch in the world and being happy with it (because through the internet, without the middle men, they can connect to their audience)...Our discussion hinges on the meaning of "Make it" or "making it" which, with my limited understanding of semantics, won't get into here.



I completely agree. A two-tiered system could develop. Artists happy to supplement their income from live performance could use the Internet to market recordings to the people who know them, and perhaps to expand that base to some degree. But I doubt that many of them, if any, will be able to parlay an online, DIY stategy into national recognition. If anything, the increase in background noise could make it more difficult for a specific artists to stand out.


Quote:

Originally Posted by wower /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I don't know where you see the music industry going, but with the costs of making a record falling, and global distrabution bascially being a couple of key strokes away, I see a proliferation of indie artists at the expense of "mainstream bands". A real paradigm shift.


That global distribution may be a few keystrokes away, but there will still be human gatekeepers. The major labels may concede defeat in trying to stop file-sharing, but they will still want to keep control of the creation of "stars." The view of the analyst in the OP is one vision of how that can happen. The mainstream of the music industry will disappear into the larger marketing industry. A singer or band will be inseparable from the brands they are manufactured to represent from day one. The mass media will only be open to artists willing to play that game.

So local success will be possible, but such success will be very limited in the grand scheme of things. To become the next big thing, you will have to toe the line and sell soap. Which means, unfortunately, that you will never see another Springsteen or Prince again, in the sense of artists who become huge purely on the basis of their music.
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 7:22 AM Post #29 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by wower /img/forum/go_quote.gif
At first I completely disagreed but then I took a step back and realized we are talking about different things. You are talking about local artists gaining mainstream attention needing publicity, which I guess is true to the extend I listen to main stream music.


That's right. Some people have prematurely announced the death of the blockbuster.

Quote:

I, on the other hand, was talking about local artists cutting out there own niche in the world and being happy with it (because through the internet, without the middle men, they can connect to their audience).


Yes. Making your own CDs has been quite affordable for the last 10 years or so, and you will often see local performers selling CDs and T-shirts at their performances. I am not sure if local economies are sufficient to sustain music as a full-time profession in any but a few exceptionally music-oriented communities like, say, Austin, Texas.

People usually talk of the "Long Tail" when they talk about this market. Ther is a lot of buzz about it on the blogosphere, but I don't know how significant it is in terms of cold hard cash, and if I were an aspiring musician I would not rely on it. Perhaps podcasting is the answer, and it would seem to me you would have to give away your music for exposure, and find some other way like merchandising to pay the mortgage, but it's still an uphill climb that is only for the most dedicated.

Quote:

So we are at cross purposes with what we are talking about and neither is incorrent. Our discussion hinges on the meaning of "Make it" or "making it" which, with my limited understanding of semantics, won't get into here. I don't know where you see the music industry going, but with the costs of making a record falling, and global distribution basically being a couple of key strokes away, I see a proliferation of indie artists at the expense of "mainstream bands". A real paradigm shift. If suing fans and saying P2P users are terrorists isn't a sign of desperation - instead of, say, finding new talent people might actually want to buy - I don't know how to convince you.


You don't have to convince me. The original discussion was about the RIAA and whether it will disappear in its role as middlemen, something I can safely say most of the public would welcome. The big labels have never been interested in nurturing local acts or offbeat genres. That does not play to their strength, their global marketing and distribution reach, and quite simply they don't have the bandwidth to devote attention to thousands of small acts, so they have to concentrate on the big money-spinners.

Unlike the majors, indie labels are doing very well right now. Traditionally they have been feeders, i.e. an artist would start with an indie label, and when they "made" it big, they would switch to a major label. It's not clear if that evolution will remain. Once an artist gets traction, it makes much more sense for them to strike deals with iTunes or Amazon than with the now irrelevant RIAA labels.

The majors are very good at one thing: getting their glop played on mainstream radio (because the recording conglomerates talk the same language as the Clear Channel radio conglomerate) and getting it on the shelves of physical stores. Since sales are inexorably shifting away from CDs to downloads (and retailers are accordingly shifting shelf space away from CDs to DVDs, video games or other products), the latter is increasingly irrelevant. I don't profess to know how most people (not just the young) get exposed to new music, since I myself only listen to classical, an exceedingly unrepresentative niche (but one where CD and SACD sales are holding well), but I do know there is strong dissatisfaction with the payola and homogenization of radio.

You could imagine communities of interest setting up grassroots equivalents of Head-Fi for musical genres like shamisen punk music, and acting as the channel by which word of mouth spreads, but it takes a tremendous amount of effort it takes to build a community like Head-Fi and how did you find out about it in the first place, if not through a Google search? Algorithmic music recommendation sites like Pandora or Last.fm have so far not taken off in a huge way. Last.fm gets about 6M visitors per month, a far cry from the 60M+ unique visitors to YouTube and comparable to the 5M unique visitors Clear Channel gets on its websites[/I[ alone. The position of music kingmaker or influencer for the digital download age is still very much up for grabs.

Thus the future I see is:
  1. Majors becoming increasingly irrelevant, and losing their top artists to new middlemen like iTunes or Amazon
  2. Independent labels thriving, handling the transition to digital by becoming feeders to Apple or Amazon, responsible for winnowing the chaff
  3. Small acts with mostly local or niche appeal continuing to scrounge by as they always have
    [*}Podcasting slowly replacing radio, since the recording cartel and Clear Channel have been effective at stifling streaming radio with royalties ordinary radio doesn't pay (in fact labels pay radio payola, not the other way round).
  4. Interesting times (in the Chinese proverb sense) for the music industry as the way people discover new music and listen to it changes dramatically, upsetting the apple cart and probably killing off the major recording labels that have so far only demonstrated their utter inability to cope with change
 
Feb 24, 2008 at 6:54 PM Post #30 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconP /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It has been like that in Hong Kong for years. America is so backward.


For years, European hockey leagues have whored out their uniforms for sponsorship.

I tend to think this.

Is a whole heckuvalot better than this.
 

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