[wakeride74]

I always hear "start with the source" and when it comes to DAP's and CDP's I've heard some pretty big differences. What I don't know is what gives the most return for the money?

Is it better to invest in a great DAC like the Stello, Apogee, Lavry, etc. or would the return be diminished if I was using it from my PC into a $300-$500 headphone amp like a Hornet or the forthcoming Lisa III? Would something like the HR Micro DAC be better to use and upgrade to a better amp?

I'm in the market for a DAC but I think I'd prefer it to be a stand-alone so I could use any amp I wanted with it; I just want to avoid wasting money on a source if the SQ I paid for with it bottlenecks at the amp.

 

[granodemostasa]

get a dac first. even my cheap 150$ computer speakers sound 3x better with my dac connected to them.

 

[thread]

I'm watching this thread. I'm leaping ahead of the rest of my gear with a pair of Editon 9's, and I'm sort of wondering if my MicroDAC is going to be the brilliant DAC to stick around or if the likes of a Stello DA100 is in my future.

I'm pretty sure that the Hornet will be first to be upgraded, though.

 

[frozenice]

I own a cheap dac. A CAL Gamma, it's small and it sounds pretty good about 10 years old. Goes for about $75 or $100 on audiogon now. Theta used to build a small one, I think it was called the 396 goes for about the same price. If you are looking for a cheap upgrade to your sound system it is something to consider. For $300 - $500 obviously you can do better but for the price concious it is something to consider.

 

[c0mfortably_numb]

For a budget DAC there is the Entech Number Cruncher 203.2 and 205.2 they can still be found new old stock on eBay here and there. Back in the day they where around $500 and can be had for $50-$100 now.

 

[wakeride74]

I just posted this in source thread and will echo here since the conversation is similar:

My only concern is having the Hornet or Lisa bottleneck the SQ potential of the Stello. I don't know how long it will be until I snatch a Raptor or WA5 and I have owned and heard several good home amps so I know how much of a difference they can make. Again, my main concern is popping for a nice DAC like the Stello when the amp I'm using is more on the level of a $300 DAC.

Will I still benifit from the quality of a more expensive DAC or would I be better off to start small and build later? How much SQ will be lost by pairing the Stello with a Hornet or Lisa vs. what it could do with a Raptor, GS-1, WA5, etc.

 

[MaloS]

You heard my opinions, I guess I could give some numerical ideas, although they are very subjective:
Supposed we mark your top, Stello DA100 + Raptor the 100% sound quality mark. In this case the Hornet would probably get you to 90% (to my ears). You will hear merits of the source, but if you have experience with better amplifiers, you probably will get the idea of how the Hornet is bottlenecking.
If you get a Micro DAC, you are already starting at only 90%, and no amp will get you over that 90%, more so high-end amplifiers might reveal too much of the Micro DAC and make things worse.
That is how I would rate it, you have to understand that while last 10% are alot, the 90% is still pretty damn good. In my head last 10% make up the more airy feeling, tightening up bass, smoothening things out...changes like that. As this is all subjective, you yourself might evaluate this differently.

 

[artears]

An amp is not as important as the source to my ears. The duty of the amp is to amplify the signal as the name suggests. So, it cannot reveal additional things, if they are not there in the incoming signal to begin with. I admit a better amp can make things sound better as well because of their capability to be and stay true to the source, but you will be again limited to the very same output of your source. IMHO a better source is a wiser upgrade.

In the case of Hornet, I heard with my own ears that how a better source can make the sound much better and almost indistinguishable from better amps. With some songs, I could not guess, which amp has been used by a blind A/B'ing.

I will probably say the same things, but to me, headphones are first to make the biggest difference, then comes the source. The last one is the amp. Everything is important though and I am a believer in balanced right now, so I would suggest to get a balanced source first. Then you can buy a balanced amp

 

[bmclaurin]

This is such a personal decision that only you can decide for yourself. As for me, I own both the Micro DAC and the Lavry DA10, which I acquired at different times for different purposes. And I own both the Hornet and a nice home amp (SP Extreme Platinum).

As for me, I wouldn't invest in a high-end home amp without also investing in a high quality, high-end source. In other words, it's kind of an all-or-nothing decision for me. As for which to get first (i.e., source or amp), frankly I don't think it matters as long as you eventually get both.

The Micro DAC is a great product for what it is, especially at its price point. But IMO, although it can "hold its own" versus greater competition, at the end of the day it is mis-matched when paired with a high-end home amp. And for that reason I simply would not consider that as a long-term solution. Likewise, why invest in a high quality source if it will "only" be paired with a small, portable amp? Don't get me wrong--the Hornet is great, I love mine. But, from a practical perspective, I can get just as much listening pleasure from my Micro DAC/Hornet combination as I can from the Hornet using the Lavry as a source for a *lot* less money, and it's more flexible to boot.

My .02.

Barry

 

[wakeride74]

All very valid and good points. I also see value in jpelg's thoughts from the thread in the source forum which is that keeping components in balance keeps from diminishing returns on any of it. I see myself as the type of person that will be more likely to upgrade, sell and trade amps and cans more than source components. There have been only a handful of amps that gave a real instant "wow" factor and from what I've read it sounds like the largest sonic differences go from headphones>source>amp>cables.

I was hoping the Lisa III would be a good middle road since it is transportable I can still take it to work and use it with iPod>ES2 via desktop but I could also connect it to the Stello at home when listening through my PC and messing around online. Based on what I've read I'd expect the Lisa to be a pretty solid amp for it's size, price and versatility and as such I'd hope that it would do the Stello some amount of justice.

 

[003]

Invest all you have in a source first.

 

[granodemostasa]

Hi
I think you should go for the top, building on something only means that you'll end up selling for a loss later on. Further, even cheap components benefit tremendously from a good dac. So what if your amp is a bottleneck, better than having your source being the bottleneck.

 

[slwiser]

My recommendation is to get one of the DACs you mentioned that has a reasonable amp and later upgrade to another amp when you can. The Benchmark USB or Lavry DA10 either one has a nice amp. The Stello Dac will cost you almost as much as either after the 85$ shipping and then you still will need an amp.

 

[wakeride74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif My recommendation is to get one of the DACs you mentioned that has a reasonable amp and later upgrade to another amp when you can. The Benchmark USB or Lavry DA10 either one has a nice amp. The Stello Dac will cost you almost as much as either after the 85$ shipping and then you still will need an amp.

True but then the DAC's internal headphone amp is in the signal path so the true sound of any amp I decide to get and use with it will be colored by the DAC's amp which I would expect to change the sound. That's what I like about the Micro and Stello is that they are only DAC's. Also if I get a DAC/amp combo that is not portable I would then have 2 components that I can not take with me vs. one with a stand-alone DAC that would be separate from the headphone amp.

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeride74 /img/forum/go_quote.gif True but then the DAC's internal headphone amp is in the signal path so the true sound of any amp I decide to get and use with it will be colored by the DAC's amp which I would expect to change the sound. That's what I like about the Micro and Stello is that they are only DAC's. Also if I get a DAC/amp combo that is not portable I would then have 2 components that I can not take with me vs. one with a stand-alone DAC that would be separate from the headphone amp.

You sure about that with either of these? I do not think the this is correct with the Lavry that I have. I will ask this question over on the Lavry forum.

Question posed. Is the Lavry headamp always coloring the DACs output?