[lionel marechal]

x2.

Philidox, it was not an attack or anything like that. And I think Coltrane is right in term or perception of the difference, 'does it matter or not', 'is it worth the cost'.

I, personally, think the word 'huge' is used to often. If you ear a huge difference between let's say 2 'good amp', how do you qualify the difference between a rs-1 and a hd650 ? 'super ultra mega huge' ?

This is where the 'problem' (if any ! ) lies. An other issue is different headphones and source which impact the effect of the amp as well.

If I want to use my hd650 on the ipod, I need a portable amp. If use the rs-2, I do not ( although it would sound better for some ears including mines, even if I would still enjoy the music without).

Lionel


Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif Im not trying to say everyone is faking or anything like that. Are some people faking? Absolutely. I am saying that there are huge disagreements on what constitutes major differences. I have no doubt that people can tell the difference. I also have no doubt that people feel the difference is worth the money, and that is fine with me. However, the power of self-delusion is absolutely immense, and it is highly underrated on these forums. When someone says there is a world of difference between FLAC and 320 mp3 or a world a difference between unamped and amped IEMs (especially low impedence) they are either: a) Lying b) Deluding themselves c) Have a completely different definition of what a world of difference is than I do. I suspect the majority of people are in category C. The vast majority. But the fact is people are also in the first two categories as well. Im just giving my impressions. I think a big problem with the board is there is so little balance, largely because people are afraid to post because someone will call them out or give them and eye roll smiley. Im still relatively new, only had the bithead and DT880s since October, but I know the differences are relatively subtle, atleast to my ears.

 

[philodox]

In that context I get your point and agree. I to have noticed the string of "OMGZ, the tomahawk is godly" type threads [not singleing out RS Audio here]. Those I just ignore.

I would like to add that though there may be some people going overboard with the praise, that does not mean then that everything is overrated and that everything is not worth the money. That is just false reasoning.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif Im not trying to say everyone is faking or anything like that. Are some people faking? Absolutely. I am saying that there are huge disagreements on what constitutes major differences. I have no doubt that people can tell the difference. I also have no doubt that people feel the difference is worth the money, and that is fine with me. However, the power of self-delusion is absolutely immense, and it is highly underrated on these forums. When someone says there is a world of difference between FLAC and 320 mp3 or a world a difference between unamped and amped IEMs (especially low impedence) they are either: a) Lying b) Deluding themselves c) Have a completely different definition of what a world of difference is than I do. I suspect the majority of people are in category C. The vast majority. But the fact is people are also in the first two categories as well. Im just giving my impressions. I think a big problem with the board is there is so little balance, largely because people are afraid to post because someone will call them out or give them and eye roll smiley. Im still relatively new, only had the bithead and DT880s since October, but I know the differences are relatively subtle, atleast to my ears.

Isn't the plain-jean Pimeta better than bithead? IIRC, personally I found pimeta to improve significantly on TAH. To put things in perspective Pimeta is really the low-low end you should start at when buying amp (I am not talking about price, but sound quality-wise).

IMO until you hit the $400 ish in DIY mraket (x2 for commercial stuff), amp are just a big volume knob. After that, you are really start to appreciate a another dimension of sound quality a good amp brings.

To quality what "another dimension" means is difficult. its one of those wow moment you will likely experience when you move up the chain. here are some example of that: sometimes you will feel like you are not even wearing a headphone cuz the sound is so enveloping and just surrounds you, sometimes you will feel like the singer is sitting in your lap or singing 6 in from your face, you can reach out and touch her lips, sometimes you will get spooked cuz you thought the music came from across the room, sometimes you are just lost in the music.

Again, one has to experience that to get it and its probably why ppl are spending $$$$$$ on amps

m2c

 

[chris_ah1]

I thought I should chime in. I bought a govibe5. It might be broken, it might not. Whilst it does make a whoosh when I use my UM2s, no woosh on other headphones so I think it's probably fine on balance.

It wasn't the sound quality that blew me away - in fact my M3 straight sounds a touch more detailed and with a wider acoustic (less in the front, more around my head making it feel a touch more transparent). What blew me away was the low sound floor with my IEMs.

Don't rule out amps because they don't make the sound go wow. I can't rule out my govibe because now I can't hear player hiss and electrical noise (although of course recording noise will always be there) even if it didn't make the sound much better.

Nothing can compare to when I got my HD-595 headset, and then my MDR-sa5000s and then my westone UM2s in increasing my appreciation of my music - the amp simply made listening to my M3 with UM2s bearable.

 

[Morph201]

I would have to agree with Coltrane (and not only because Trane is\was my favourite artist...well the classic quartet, but that's another post!)... But, you're right... I for one am totally turned off by all of the RSA or Xin (the two dominant amp posts on this site) amps are ungodly BS! I received a number of PMs from people who A\Bed the GV5 and Tomahawk and most were hard-pressed to notice a WOW effect, given the price difference. And to me, in order to go from a $75 to a $319, I better get at least ONE WOW... even with a nice refund policy, I refuse to waste my time on that kind of gamble.. Sorry Ray, not picking on you directly, but just stating some information..
I admit, I purchased my fair share of amps, and the my last portable purchase, the Xenos 1HA-EPC (thanks to Skylab's delusional postings!!!

j/k).. will be MY LAST! I refuse to purchase portable amps for the sake of FOTM, JUST to get subtle differences... What-ever! I'm depleting my wallet and making SOMEONE else rich! Prove to me, that I deserve to give you my dough!!

For me, a more wise investment in sound would be in the home realm... like I said earlier, you can only squeeze so much juice out of a portable rig, after that you're just colouring the music and at that point it becomes self-defeating!

To each his own... Luckily I learned this lesson somewhat early on...

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef Medeski /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have HF-1s. Etymotic ER-4S. I love them to death. Etys were my first real cans. Grados have always been something special for me, and special woody editions only makes them even better. All I heard about them was, AMPS HELP SO MUCH. I was weary though cause I hate making things complicated with Amps. I mean I love just carrying around my iPod, its so slick. But add an amp, extra cables. Batteries. It gets complicated. Yet, finally Head-fi pulled me. I got a Bithead, perfect, right. Its a DAC plus amp itll give me new levels of sound. Plug everything in . Where's the difference? Ok... understandable, its very liad back probably not my style. Dont get discouraged, just sell it. Sold it at $40 lost due to customs. Decide to buy a Tomahawk. Much more present of an amp. Nice small, hopefully it wont be burdensome. Plus amde for Etys and HF-1. Perfect! Well I thought my first one was defective, which might have just been my mind working. But the second one I guess I so wanted to just the $300 spent that my mind tricked me into thinking it sounded great. Sure it was hard to proof. So, I've been carrying it around with me recently. Fun and games. Then I plugged my HF-1s into my computer to hear some old school Beatles. And you no what. It blew me away. This is what I use to love, the detail and quality. The amazing sound. This blew me away in the beginning with buying great headphones. The almost ear-gasm. Then it never returned and I guess I searched for amps to allow me to hear again. Yet to no prevail. Suddenly its the crappy headphone out of my computer making me hear and feel the vibe. I'm thinkin I'm goin to sell my Toma. Its a great product. I just cant justify $300 on a device when I cant hear a difference. I mean I can hear subtleties. But I don't pay subtleties for $300.... atleast not yet. Just wanted to put this out. For those who lookin to buy. It wont always help that much. Headphones are probably the best upgrade ever. Sources make a huge difference. But... if the complexity and cumbersomeness of portable amps has you not wanting to buy one. Dont. The sound isnt worth it. Save yourself some money. Go buy a couple nice albums. Treat yourself to a nice ice cream. And put some money in the bank. If you double check and see that account is just begging to be plucked. Well then splurge away, but I think Blind Testing and critical listening might help you decide for yourself that it really isnt worth it. Especially if it takes you 3 weeks salary to get $300 as it does for most part timers/students like me. Just remember. Enjoy the music and keep your wallet tight! Then you will always enjoy what you have.

Keep in mind that the Tomahawk is optimized for IEM which are extremelly efficient and sensitive headphones, and need almost no power to be fed properly, Tomahawk, is IMO an example of a wrong choice of an amp for the HF-1, which is not an IEM, so please do not expect a miracle. You need a more beeffy amp...Maybe the Hornet, or the SR-71 will be your best bet if you like the Ray Samuels sound.

 

[cerbie]

Just sticky it, already!

As someone who will likely never get anything with four digits to the price tag (go budget-fi!), I found an amp, portable, even, to treat upgraditis so far (I will make no predictions for the future on that front). Its total is now about $200 (amp, batteries, added opamps/buffers), and it made things fun to listen to again. I would not consider getting a non-portable headphone amp, too (even though I mostly do desktop listening).

There are too many potential subtleties to make any blanket statement on whether an amp is worth it or not. Let us just accept this. I've got friends who can't tell the slightest bit of difference from mine, even though it was night and day the first time I plugged my cheapo Kosses in--to me.

I've even found that synergy thing now, with my DAP, using a non-default opamp.

Variables that can influence a judgement, off the top of my head:
1. Placebo: it's new, shiny (or matte, but cool looking), good.
2. Price placebo: you don't want something expensive to be bad. Hello, Bose.
3. FOT(M|W|D) syndrome: see #1, but with added social pressure.
4. Source: how good are you feeding it?
5. Cans: how much do they need it?
6. Ears/Brain: how much difference will you hear v. someone else? IoW, what are you listening to that someone else may not be, and what are you not listening to that someone else may be.
7. Synergy and whatever-an-antithesis-of-synergy-is: how does your equipment work together on top of each parts own qualities?
8. Specific wants: that tubey sound, dark, bright, artificially reduce emphasis on sibilance for badly done music, etc..

Surely even that doesn't scratch the surface.

Buy something you can sell easily, and/or from a source of good repute with a good return policy. The quality of the amp odes not necessarily have a causal correlation with how well you will perceive its performance and/or value (FI, my comparison on value is, "how many albums I have queued up to buy does it cost?"). Likewise, quality of sources and even headphones does not necessarily have that kind of relationship in so far as how much the amp will help. You'll just have to Try It And See (with the original concept recording only, of course!

).

I don't doubt the nice expensive amps, power supplies, headphones, and maybe even cables, are worth it to those who use them, and I'm sure some of you are hearing real differences. But the perception is what matters, so those differences you hear are not less real than the lack of them to someone else. That remains true whether you allow for placebo or not.

 

[Rick Hunter]

I think it's all a matter of WHICH amp and WHICH headphone and WHICH source.

Example: with my HD595 (50 ohm)
- I can tell the difference between unamped from ipod nano and amped (line-out) with Little dot Micro+ but it's a minor difference
- I can tell the difference between unamped from ipod nano and amped (line-out) with "M" Hornet and it's a clearly audible difference, surely NOT minor.

This is because the LDM+ is only marginally better than the ipod's internal amp, while the "M" Hornet is noticeably better than the ipod's internal amp.

With an amp thats noticeably better than your source's internal amp you will hear a definite difference, even with low-impedance phones, provided that they're decent enough to show sensitivity to proper amping. (read further to understand better what I mean)

Second: the headphone sensitivity to amping: examples
There is very little difference between ibuds unamped from ipod nano and Ibuds amped with line-out and "M" Hornet... They are just too crappy/small/efficent to be sensible to amp changes.
With PX100s the difference between amped/unamped is greater than with Ibuds
With Grado SR-60 the difference is greater than with PX100s
With HD595s it is greater than Grados
With HD650s it is greater than HD595s

Understand what I mean? Usually the better/bigger/more power hungry cans are those that show better the amped/unamped differences (assuming you have a good amp that is noticeably better than your source's internal amp)

In the end it all boils down to a combo of WHICH cans, WHICH source, and WHICH amp you are using... Depending on the gear you may hear a small, not so small, or big difference between amped/unamped...

Just my two cents.

 

[Morph201]

But once again that's a matter of personal experience... there are a number of people that claim (for example.. ) there's a marginal difference between midrange and highend portable amp using the same IEMs (I'm leaving the names out on purpose), but the higher end portable is supposed to be tuned for IEMS... so how do we justify the higher price point? That is a big issue... and because a number of people are paying the higher price you get a slew of "This builder is the MAN" or whatever... I sampled some of those "higher priced amps" and to me, the subtle differences weren't worth it. Now I cant speak for full sized cans, but with regard to E500s.... I wasn't floored... for me to fork over an additional 300+ bucks I should be "kinda" floored.... the workmanship was nice, but the SQ (which is a MAJOR selling point for me) wasn't that impressive.

Like I said, I left out specific names, but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks..

 

[Skylab]

It's NOT a matter of personal experience that it is the combination of the amp, source, and headphone that will determine what difference there will be with a give amp. How big the difference, and what that's worth, are certainly a matter of personal experience, and priority.

 

[Morph201]

So, you're telling me, when the Xenos arrives (and this is something I'm buying without ever hearing in my life), I will have the same OR similiar experience as you? My frame of reference could be totally different... even though our gear may be similiar... Therefore my experience is totally independent of the gear, it's whatever I delude myself into believing OR not.

I could have a COBY mp3 player with 64kb/s encoded music running a homemade cmoy using marshmellow buds and think it's TOTALLY rocking.. does that mean my experience is any less correct because of the gear??

Perception = reality.

 

[vcoheda]

You had to think that this thread would get a lot of responses.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morph201 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, you're telling me, when the Xenos arrives (and this is something I'm buying without ever hearing in my life), I will have the same OR similiar experience as you? My frame of reference could be totally different... even though our gear may be similiar... Therefore my experience is totally independent of the gear, it's whatever I delude myself into believing OR not. I could have a COBY mp3 player with 64kb/s encoded music running a homemade cmoy using marshmellow buds and think it's TOTALLY rocking.. does that mean my experience is any less correct because of the gear?? Perception = reality.

Dude, you didn't read my post carefully. That isn't what I said at all. I totally agree the degree of difference is entirely the individual's perception.

 

[Morph201]

Ah, nevermind then....

but it sounded good huh!? hehe...

It's ironic though, what this thread is about... I mean, Bose has a very very very (ad infinitum) rating here... but, they're still in business because of the amount of people that love them for whatever reason (mostly marketing)... but then you gotta wonder.. within our circle... I'm sure theirs a percentage of people out there laughing at us with our portables...thinking "what are they smoking"... it goes on and on and on... That's why whether this new amp works out or not... it's a wrap...I'm done! (happy for my wallet)..

I'll just have to find something else to waste my "limited" funds on... maybe start going back to strip bars or something!

 

[Morph201]

Oh, btw WOOT! 200+ member now!!

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Do I get a prize?!