[drago10029]

Hey, so I've been learning about all of these things lately.  Here is what I know.
 
Amp - takes source sound and gives it more power and processes sound
DAC - Just converts digital to analog?
Sound Card - Processes sound and sometimes can be both of the above?
 
I just want a solid understanding of what they do, what some of the specs mean, etc.  Also I feel I like an Amp and Sound Card might be pretty similar, Am I wrong?

 

[snowlune]

An amp gives it more power.
A DAC converts digital to analog.
Normally, they would be connected like Source → DAC → Amp → Headphones.
A soundcard is just an amp+dac built in your computer. Sometimes it can also process the sound to add 3d effects, etc.

 

[drago10029]

I understand the mini flow chart and about sound cards potentially having amp+dac features depending on price range etc. but I've also read from the reviews about Amps giving better bass, sound stage, etc.  Those sound like sound processor/sound card features.  Could someone explain that?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Hey, so I've been learning about all of these things lately.  Here is what I know.
 
Amp - takes source sound and gives it more power and processes sound
DAC - Just converts digital to analog?
Sound Card - Processes sound and sometimes can be both of the above?
 
I just want a solid understanding of what they do, what some of the specs mean, etc.  Also I feel I like an Amp and Sound Card might be pretty similar, Am I wrong?

 
A modern sound card has all the features of an external DAC/amp (DAC chip and headphone amplifier).
But a sound card (internal or external or on-board) will also come with an audio processor, which can do things like headphone surround sound processing, before the audio signal gets to the DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) chip.
Some (lower costing) audio processors come with a built in DAC feature, but it's more for cost saving, then ultimate sound quality.

 

[snowlune]

That can be attributed to several factors. First, some headphones need a lot of power to drive. If you try driving these headphones out of your motherboard, the bass and treble can sound rolled off. This is where the amp comes in. By using the amp, you can satisfy your headphones' power demands and that's where the bass and soundstage improvement comes from.
 
Second, some amps intentionally modify the sound, either by analog or digital means. Tube amps add euphonic distortion, and some FiiO amps have a bass boost switch.
 
Most of the time, it's a combination of the two.

 

[drago10029]

   
A modern sound card has all the features of an external DAC/amp (DAC chip and headphone amplifier).
But a sound card (internal or external or on-board) will also come with an audio processor, which can do things like headphone surround sound processing, before the audio signal gets to the DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) chip.
Some (lower costing) audio processors come with a built in DAC feature, but it's more for cost saving, then ultimate sound quality.

 
Essentially you're saying a sound card may or may not have Amp features but I'm assuming from my knowledge all these days have DAC features?  why is a DAC even necessary in 2015, heck even in 2010 lol?
 

  That can be attributed to several factors. First, some headphones need a lot of power to drive. If you try driving these headphones out of your motherboard, the bass and treble can sound rolled off. This is where the amp comes in. By using the amp, you can satisfy your headphones' power demands and that's where the bass and soundstage improvement comes from.
 
Second, some amps intentionally modify the sound, either by analog or digital means. Tube amps add euphonic distortion, and some FiiO amps have a bass boost switch.
 
Most of the time, it's a combination of the two.

''amp comes in. By using the amp, you can satisfy your headphones' power demands and that's where the bass and soundstage improvement comes from."
By the above you mean that users who driver power hungry headphones with an Amp are just experiencing what their headphones can do and not an Amp processing sound?  or can it be a combo the amp bringing out the headphones full power and adding it's own effects?

 

[cel4145]

Essentially you're saying a sound card may or may not have Amp features but I'm assuming from my knowledge all these days have DAC features?  why is a DAC even necessary in 2015, heck even in 2010 lol?

Well, because most music is digital. And so it requires converting to analog so it can be amplified.

But if you meant why is an external DAC necessary, that's because there are various grades of DACs, some arguably (or not) better than others at accurately producing sound mainly because some are implemented better than others. For example, a PC can be an EMI noisy electronic environment, and so external DACs may offer freedom from that.

 

[drago10029]

i did mean eternal/indpendent and that makes perfect sense!
 
also why can't music digitally be amplified? would that scramble the source too much?

 

[snowlune]

  ''amp comes in. By using the amp, you can satisfy your headphones' power demands and that's where the bass and soundstage improvement comes from."
By the above you mean that users who driver power hungry headphones with an Amp are just experiencing what their headphones can do and not an Amp processing sound?  or can it be a combo the amp bringing out the headphones full power and adding it's own effects?
 
also why can't music digitally be amplified? would that scramble the source too much?

 
Yes, most of the time it's a combo, like you described. Unless you have an amp like the O2 or the Magni which does not alter the sound itself.
 
You cannot amplify the signal digitally because at the end, more power = more voltage. If your mobo isn't outputting enough voltage, there's nothing you can do digitally about it. You can increase the volume by reducing the dynamic range, but the voltage still is the same. This means that if your headphones are underpowered by your mobo, they will still be underpowered.

 

[tomb]

  Hey, so I've been learning about all of these things lately.  Here is what I know.
 
Amp - takes source sound and gives it more power and processes sound
DAC - Just converts digital to analog?
Sound Card - Processes sound and sometimes can be both of the above?
 
I just want a solid understanding of what they do, what some of the specs mean, etc.  Also I feel I like an Amp and Sound Card might be pretty similar, Am I wrong?

 
You're better off to think in terms of specialized devices to provide the optimum performance of each component in the audio chain.
 
DAC - this is the same as a source.  In the old days, this meant the turntable, the tuner, or the tape deck.  They were all sources and provided no amplification sufficient to drive speakers by themselves.  The focus of each device as a source was to provide the highest fidelity possible and preserve and faithfully reproduce everything that was on the music medium.  In each case, there was a small amount of pre-amplification and processing that took place within the device (or in the case of phono, industry standard pre-processors).  This was done to both compensate for the physical limitations of the medium and to bring the output into a manageable standard that allowed mix and match of standard components throughout the industry (line-level RCA standard).
 
A DAC does the same thing, but the conversion begins from a digital medium of some sort.  The DACs in a CD player, for instance, use the laser CD reader as input.  DACs in a television, A/V receiver, iPod or smartphone do the same thing with various media.  In the headphone and audiophile industry at large, "DAC" usually means an offboard device that can utilize a digital data stream of some sort - USB, SPDIF, optical, etc.  It may still have an amplification stage of some sort - opamp, discrete I/V, etc.  Contrary to the popular theory at the time CD's came about (the original emergence of digital media), everything is not simply 90dB S/N ratio and 20-20KHz.  The way a digital signal is processed into analog can be all important and each specific implementation's success can vary widely in quality.  There is a school of thought recently - fueled by NWAVGUY and others - that is bringing back the view that all's that needed is 90dB S/N ratio and 20-20KHz and things are as good as they can get.  More often than not, it's a way to justify a limited investment in one's own equipment rather than any basis in fact.  (Yes, I know 90dB is not the goal these days, but it was thought the best ever achievable when CD's came out, especially compared to the 50-60dB of turntables.)
 
Sound Card - these may encompass a DAC and even a headphone amplifier, but the comparison is like saying a boom box is an audiophile component system.  Yeah, it may have all the parts, but it will never compete at the same level.  It has always been so in the audiophile world when there were consoles or combination receiver/tape/turntable systems. Yes, you can get great performance sometimes with a sound card, but it will always be hampered by living in the PC environment and using the PC's power supply.  A lot of tricks are done (buck-boost circuitry) to make this happen and it can seem like a good alternative, but it will never be as quiet and it will never compete with a truly great desktop amp or DAC.  Quite simply, it's physically limited and there's a price for that.
 
Amp - this is more mixed than one would think than the first two.  Most people would think the reverse.  However, it's easy to point out that speakers require real power to drive and a sufficient amplifier is needed.  With a headphone, it's not quite as clear.  Some headphones are efficient enough that a source (with its own internal amplifier) can drive them directly.  With others, it's not so clear and you may see the extremes of speaker-amplifier-type-power recommended.  Then again, a headphone amplifier can be thought of as a pre-amplifier, where attenuation is one of the goals desired.  So, you can even think of a headphone amplifier being used to provide attenuation.  For what purpose, you might ask?  To control and preserve the detail coming from the source and at the same time control the drivers in the headphone. 
 
Yes, sometimes that means more power, but often times, it means a better match of amplifier topology with the characteristic drivers.  Drivers in the headphones?  What's to control, you might ask?  Run a test sometime of an amp with a simple resistor as a load vs. a headphone with supposedly equal impedance.  They're two different things and may result in huge testing differences.  This is why you see such a cottage industry built over esoteric parts (expensive volume pots, stepped attenuators, magic capacitors, and cables, cables, cables).  It's all about the optimum match of power-control and headphone drivers.
 
Just MHO, nothing more ...

 

 

[drago10029]

   
Yes, most of the time it's a combo, like you described. Unless you have an amp like the O2 or the Magni which does not alter the sound itself.
 
You cannot amplify the signal digitally because at the end, more power = more voltage. If your mobo isn't outputting enough voltage, there's nothing you can do digitally about it. You can increase the volume by reducing the dynamic range, but the voltage still is the same. This means that if your headphones are underpowered by your mobo, they will still be underpowered.

coming from a PC background, that makes perfect sense!  and even more sense with Tomb's answer.
 

   
You're better off to think in terms of specialized devices to provide the optimum performance of each component in the audio chain.
 
DAC - this is the same as a source.  In the old days, this meant the turntable, the tuner, or the tape deck.  They were all sources and provided no amplification sufficient to drive speakers by themselves.  The focus of each device as a source was to provide the highest fidelity possible and preserve and faithfully reproduce everything that was on the music medium.  In each case, there was a small amount of pre-amplification and processing that took place within the device (or in the case of phono, industry standard pre-processors).  This was done to both compensate for the physical limitations of the medium and to bring the output into a manageable standard that allowed mix and match of standard components throughout the industry (line-level RCA standard).
 
A DAC does the same thing, but the conversion begins from a digital medium of some sort.  The DACs in a CD player, for instance, use the laser CD reader as input.  DACs in a television, A/V receiver, iPod or smartphone do the same thing with various media.  In the headphone and audiophile industry at large, "DAC" usually means an offboard device that can utilize a digital data stream of some sort - USB, SPDIF, optical, etc.  It may still have an amplification stage of some sort - opamp, discrete I/V, etc.  Contrary to the popular theory at the time CD's came about (the original emergence of digital media), everything is not simply 90dB S/N ratio and 20-20KHz.  The way a digital signal is processed into analog can be all important and each specific implementation's success can vary widely in quality.  There is a school of thought recently - fueled by NWAVGUY and others - that is bringing back the view that all's that needed is 90dB S/N ratio and 20-20KHz and things are as good as they can get.  More often than not, it's a way to justify a limited investment in one's own equipment rather than any basis in fact.  (Yes, I know 90dB is not the goal these days, but it was thought the best ever achievable when CD's came out, especially compared to the 50-60dB of turntables.)
 
Sound Card - these may encompass a DAC and even a headphone amplifier, but the comparison is like saying a boom box is an audiophile component system.  Yeah, it may have all the parts, but it will never compete at the same level.  It has always been so in the audiophile world when there were consoles or combination receiver/tape/turntable systems. Yes, you can get great performance sometimes with a sound card, but it will always be hampered by living in the PC environment and using the PC's power supply.  A lot of tricks are done (buck-boost circuitry) to make this happen and it can seem like a good alternative, but it will never be as quiet and it will never compete with a truly great desktop amp or DAC.  Quite simply, it's physically limited and there's a price for that.
 
Amp - this is more mixed than one would think than the first two.  Most people would think the reverse.  However, it's easy to point out that speakers require real power to drive and a sufficient amplifier is needed.  With a headphone, it's not quite as clear.  Some headphones are efficient enough that a source (with its own internal amplifier) can drive them directly.  With others, it's not so clear and you may see the extremes of speaker-amplifier-type-power recommended.  Then again, a headphone amplifier can be thought of as a pre-amplifier, where attenuation is one of the goals desired.  So, you can even think of a headphone amplifier being used to provide attenuation.  For what purpose, you might ask?  To control and preserve the detail coming from the source and at the same time control the drivers in the headphone. 
 
Yes, sometimes that means more power, but often times, it means a better match of amplifier topology with the characteristic drivers.  Drivers in the headphones?  What's to control, you might ask?  Run a test sometime of an amp with a simple resistor as a load vs. a headphone with supposedly equal impedance.  They're two different things and may result in huge testing differences.  This is why you see such a cottage industry built over esoteric parts (expensive volume pots, stepped attenuators, magic capacitors, and cables, cables, cables).  It's all about the optimum match of power-control and headphone drivers.
 
Just MHO, nothing more ...

 

 
So the DAC stuff was crystal clear but aside from the technological limits of the time, why was 90 SNR the goal back then?  I assume simply because it was better than the turtables you mentioned lol, seems like something a free enterprise company would market.
 
Now for sound card, "...sound card, but it will always be hampered by living in the PC environment and using the PC's power supply;;;" I've heard PC PSU's affect sound, and I've heard of EMI.  could you give me a better meaning for all that?
 
Lastly, Amp stuff, I understand Amps Drive headphones but is there a beginner friendly place to learn about amplifiers?  most of what you wrote went over my head.

 

[billybob_jcv]

I guess I feel fortunate to have grown-up in the golden-age of analog home stereo. Voltage, current & impedance were things every audiophile was forced to learn, as were the concepts of sources, preamps, amps, drivers and the difference between line-level & speaker-level signals. I'm not trying to sound superior (I am not!) - I just think it's interesting that there's now many folks that can be quite knowledgeable about the digital side, and may also have very nice sounding PC-based & portable rigs, without ever really needing to have dealt with the classic side of analog audio.

It makes me feel old...

 

[drago10029]

I get you, always nice to look back on things and I agree in most topics. The first generation of builders/adopters tend to know more than 2nd and 3rd, The need for that original knowledge becomes unnecessary for the masses.  But since I'm here learning and you just took your claim as Audio guru lol any beginner friendly guides resources you wanna share about the things you mentioned?
 
I'm looking to get my hands messy and learn a lot.  My background is PC and I would consider myself intermediate at that if it helps.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Essentially you're saying a sound card may or may not have Amp features but I'm assuming from my knowledge all these days have DAC features?  why is a DAC even necessary in 2015, heck even in 2010 lol?

 
Older sounds cards really did not come with what someone would call a good quality headphone amplifier.
It was more like a line-output signal that could drive basic headphones.
As it's gotten cheaper to manufacturer a headphone amplifier chip, it's fairly standard now to have a headphone amplifier chip built into a sound card (on the newest models, past three years?)
I guess it was about five years ago high priced sound card ($200+) started to include what could be called a true headphone amplifier chip.
Sound cards like the Asus Xonar DS, DSX, DX, D1 do not come with what I would call a true headphone amplifier built in, but can still drive most of these "gaming" headsets and a decent share of headphones.
 
Modern audio is stored in a digital (zero & ones) form, but our ears are analog (wave).
(DAC chips are used in just about everything that outputs an audio signal).
So sometime from the audio coming off it's (digital) storage medium, to where it gets picked up by the human ear, it needs to be changed from digital to analog.
Amplifiers are analog, so the digital audio signal needs to be changed into an analog audio signal, before an audio signal can be sent to the amplifier.

 

[billybob_jcv]

Yikes! I've been involved in the audio hobby for almost 40 years, and I'm FAR from a guru. I've probably forgotten more than I know...

Here's one: https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Analog.html

I think a big part of the answer is to just keep reading. Read articles here on head-fi, InnerFidelity, Audio360, etc. There is tons of info all over the 'net.