[mdboyce]

Thanks, GearMe! I've heard several times that the Valhalla sounds great with the 650s. My biggest concern is the flexibility of the Valhalla 2, since I want to use it with a range of headphones that I will eventually buy (especially something like the LCD line of headphones). I would rather buy 2 or 3 amp/DAC setups for use in different locations that can push almost everything and spend more on different pairs of headphones. Once I'm satisfied with my collection of cans I may come back around and start trying different amps, especially some of the more traditional tube amps.

What are you looking at as opposed to the Jot? It might also be worth it for me to spend more on an amp and use the ODAC for a while to save up for a better DAC like the Bifrost or Gungnir multi-bit.

 

[mdboyce]

damn. This whole balanced desire makes it really expensive.

Maybe I'll skip over balanced and just go with a Vali 2...

Yeah, I feel your pain.

 

[16610]

Thanks, GearMe! I've heard several times that the Valhalla sounds great with the 650s. My biggest concern is the flexibility of the Valhalla 2, since I want to use it with a range of headphones that I will eventually buy (especially something like the LCD line of headphones). I would rather buy 2 or 3 amp/DAC setups for use in different locations that can push almost everything and spend more on different pairs of headphones. Once I'm satisfied with my collection of cans I may come back around and start trying different amps, especially some of the more traditional tube amps.

What are you looking at as opposed to the Jot? It might also be worth it for me to spend more on an amp and use the ODAC for a while to save up for a better DAC like the Bifrost or Gungnir multi-bit.

I agree 100% . Versatility is key.

But the Bifrost dac is not a balanced dac. So the "source" aint balanced. Yet we didn't reach consensus whether this makes the whole chain unbalanced. Maybe some experts can chime in here... ?

 

[mdboyce]

If you're going to be using the same HD6xx I found a couple of options for cables. If you're handy it can be done for cheap: https://robrobinette.com/BalancedCable.htm#Sennheiser_HD
I like that sort of thing so I might do that if I go that route.

I eventually want to get a pair of HD800s as they seem ridiculous awesome.

I had to step back and re-evaluate what I'm actually looking for. Since what I'm currently shopping for will primarily be used in my office it'll probably only really push the HD650s. I'll use anything higher end I buy in a different area of the house with a different amp/DAC where I get away from the distractions of work and focus on the music. I don't think you really get the most out of you're investment if you really mostly listen while distracted.

Though that doesn't really help my decision much, it does alleviate some of the worries about being able to power anything and everything. I have heard that both the Valhall 2 and Jotunheim sound amazing on the HD650 and are a great compliment. It seems like both are similar in price (Valhalla/Modi 2 multi-bit and Jotunheim 2 and re-cable). I may wait to buy until I get the headphones and break them in a bit. Since Schiit lets you try for 15 days and waives the restocking fee if you move up the line, I may see which setup would be considered "up" and try the other one first.

My inkling is that I may want to go with the Valhalla, as that will give me the full tube experience I want (and let me dabble with tube rolling though I don't know if I really want to go down that rabbit hole). Then buy a really nice balanced amp/DAC later that I can use for the HD650 along with anything else I might buy.

 

[BunnyNamedCraig]

Whatever you do I would not get hung up on balanced output... There are amps that do have better balanced output then their single ended output (liquid carbon for instance) but obviously there are amps that are single ended and just as powerful.

It sounds like you have a LOT you have been thinking about ha. Tube rabbit hole is something that I have been personally thinking about as well...

but anyways- if you are trying to get a rig for the office then focus on that. would you ever take your equipment from the office home with you to listen to over the weekend, or solely keep there?

You are 100% correct in realizing that you wont get the most enjoyment out of it when you are at work. Your brain at work isn't able to chill and get into the music as much compared to laying in a chair and being immersed, so keep that in mind.

Good luck! by the way I am usually under the impression to get the Chord Mojo for Dac for its extreme versatility plus price/performance. I talked to an experiences guy that loves using it in his 2 channel set up and is more then happy with it. something to think about

 

[mdboyce]

Thanks, MTMECraig. I might be getting a bit hung up on balanced vs. SE. So it's a bit of an odd situation. I have a home office and an actual work office. At work, I need to have closed headphones since I'm in a cube, so I'll probably stick with the ATH-A700 with ODAC/Objective2. That amp/DAC combo is also going to be my portable set for now.

This is for my home office, so I have a bit more space and freedom of volume and am not worried about portability. In the next 2-3 years, I'm probably going to be moving and going full time remote, so I'm not going to spend a ton on something for the actual office aside from what I have (though I may get a better set of closed headphones at some point).

I've read really good things about the Mojo, but I think it's a bit out of my budget this time around, especially since I want to get an amp as well. I feel pretty good about either the Valhalla/Modi MB or Jotunheim. Either of those should be great with the HD650 (what I plan to run in my home office) and aren't an over the top expense for what I want to do with them. When I eventually shop for a dedicated listening area, I'll pick up some higher end open back and planar headphones and spend more on an amp, DAC, and source.

 

[16610]

There's also people who say that balanced output mostly makes sense when using a long headphone cable. In an environment with very little magnetic fields where the listener sits close to the amp with a fairy short cable, a balanced output 'd be just a waste of money. And if there might be a difference, it would be almost impossible to hear.

Are there people who can relate to this? Technically it does makes sense, don't get me wrong. But who dares to claim that a balanced output is really making a noticeable difference in the above described situation? I'm curious.

 

[buke9]

A very good combo.

 

[16610]

A very good combo.

Looks sick... how 'd this $400 piece compare to the $200 DragonFly red?

 

[buke9]

I have only heard the Dragonfly Red as a dac only and not powering the headphones directly so I can't say but it did a very good job better than the Mojo I would guess not . I have the amp I heard the Red from but without it in front of me I can't say for sure but the Mojo is very hard to beat for the price. It is a little on the warm side to me and that is why I think it pairs well with the 800's and the 700's I have but with the 6xx's I'm not a fan. I'm pretty sure I would pick the Mojo between the two. Not saying the Red is bad but i think the Mojo is better. This is just my opinion take that for what it is worth.

 

[100VoltTube]

To quote myself quoting myself on the topic of balanced vs SE:

To quote myself on the topic of balanced:

Balancing is an interesting thing. The headphones don't care if they're balanced or not, but the amp is balanced all the way through, there can be advantages. A "balanced" signal is just a signal that has 2 signals, 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Having both signals means that the designer of the amp can use all sorts of cool, low-distortion topologies that sound subjectively better. Balanced topologies also have the advantage of having massive PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) so they can be very, very low noise even with noisy power supplies. The practical upshot of all of this is that running a balanced system can be advantageous, but just because of the amp section. Pairing balanced headphones with a balanced amp is usually a good idea if the amp has a balanced output stage, because you get the full output power (a good thing).

Mind you, all of this is purely theoretical, and a well designed single ended amp can be, and often is, better than a badly-designed or even mediocre balanced amp.

To add to this: The original purpose of balanced audio was in studio environments with very long runs of cable that could pick up interference and noise. Balanced amps offer high CMRR (common mode noise rejection), a phenenom well illustrated by the image below:

The noise in the input signal is in the same phase in both input signals, so it is cancelled out.

All of this is cool, but if the amp doesn't take advantage of these benefits, there's no point in buying a balanced amp.

The Jot is a good option, but it sounds quite different from a Cavalli amp, particularly a tube-based one (or so I'm told). Cavalli amps are generally very warm and smooth. The Valhalla 2, on the other hand doesn't offer a very tubey sound, but it does have a high output impedance compared to the jot, which decreases the damping factor, which will change the sound slightly. In the case of the HD6XX, it will increase the midbass level slightly due to the rise in impedance in that region.

BTW, the jot's DAC card does have a balanced output.

 

[Currawong]

My advice is: Don't get hung up on balanced if you're spending <$1000. Like whether or not to use a tube gain stage, what opamp to put in a circuit, or whether to use discrete components, a balanced amp is one of the many choices of the designer. If you're buying a DAC that is designed to work best using the balanced output, then it makes some sense to use an amp that can make the most of that, but then you'd be spending $thousands most likely, and have, or plan to get, top-of-the-line headphones.

 

[mdboyce]

100VoltTube, thanks for the detailed info. It seems like any of those would be good choices for the HD650. I think what you and Currawong are saying makes sense. There are top of the line amps that sound amazing of all kinds. The most important thing is to pick and amp that will sound good with the headphones I'm choosing and pair it with a DAC that is designed to work best with that type of amp. For my budget I don't think it will make a big difference anyway, everything I'm looking at is generally very well reviewed and is supposed to be a good match for what I want the to drive, that's the most important thing.

Buke9, that's a really nice setup. For some reason I thought the Mojo was a DAC only, not sure where I got that.

 

[BunnyNamedCraig]

100VoltTube, thanks for the detailed info. It seems like any of those would be good choices for the HD650. I think what you and Currawong are saying makes sense. There are top of the line amps that sound amazing of all kinds. The most important thing is to pick and amp that will sound good with the headphones I'm choosing and pair it with a DAC that is designed to work best with that type of amp. For my budget I don't think it will make a big difference anyway, everything I'm looking at is generally very well reviewed and is supposed to be a good match for what I want the to drive, that's the most important thing.

Buke9, that's a really nice setup. For some reason I thought the Mojo was a DAC only, not sure where I got that.

Mojo is not a DAC only, but it's not like the amp in it is very strong (just to keep that In mind). It IS enough to make the Utopia sound pretty dang good though! The Utopia is fairly easy to drive though ha.

 

[cossix]

I have a balanced dac the Yggdrasil and a balanced amp the Cavalli Liquid Carbon and I can not tell the difference between the two. Some might but I can not. The balanced output most think is better because on most amps it doubles the power but volume matching on the Carbon I'm still at a lose to tell too much difference. Balanced cables were made for long cable runs on microphones to reduce interference. It has creep its way into audiophile space as a panacea for more better imo.

This is why I always try to insert the clarification that the Jot sounds better using balanced because the difference in power output is huge. When I AB my 650 single ended and balanced, there is a difference of 550mW...which is more than some people's amps can even put into 300 ohms to start. I'm sure that's why it sounds better to me, not necessarily because of the dedicated grounds for each channel