[upstateguy]

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[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingcrib /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stop making blind claims: both sides. I dare someone to do some honest double blind randomized controlled comparisons between different amps, connectors, whatever. You will have your answer after completing this testing. Until you do this testing your opinion is totally biased by your own self interests.

I don't think it's the pro camp making blind claims. People with experience with the subject are making claims reflecting their personal experience with the subject, nothing more. It's people of the contra camp who make absolutistic, audio-ideologic claims.

I can only offer my view: It's absurd to think all amps sound the same. The differences are very distinct to my ears.

BTW, have you taken notice of this? http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/do...-forum-227350/

Nevertheless, if one should fail in a blinded test, that doesn't mean the result is binding; it may be valid just for the given configuration, if at all. BTW, randomized listening tests are the best method to get negative results, so they are desired. In any event, the majority of Head-Fi members don't evaluate their gear that way, and with good reason.
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[upstateguy]

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[bobsmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nothing personal, but if that is the case, there is a load of money waiting for you in the Clark Challenge.... except, of course, no one has been able to hear these differences without looking and collect the money, since IIRC 1990.....

There are plenty of objections to the methodology/validity of that particular challenge, among others, that have been raised throughout the years. Suffice it to say that many feel that test is hardly the final word on the subject. Regardless, given that it has been pointed out that discussion of these types of tests is explicitly against the rules of these forums, it seems that discussion along these lines should either be ended or moved to the appropriate forum.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nothing personal, but if that is the case, there is a load of money waiting for you in the Clark Challenge.... except, of course, no one has been able to hear these differences without looking and collect the money, since IIRC 1990.....

No, thank you... I don't need the money -- I already have the amp I like. Moreover, I'm not in the neighborhood.
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[Fryguy8]

Being a couple tenths of a watt off of flat response makes FAR less of a difference when driving 50+ watts to speakers than it does when driving less than a watt to headphones.

In my experience it's very hard to tell the difference between amplifiers when driving speakers, assuming that the amplifier is used withing it's operating range (proper impedance, no clipping, decent cabling, etc).

It's relatively different to tell the difference in headphones, because those minute differences in response are magnified on such a small signal.

Also obviously some amps (notably tubes) are built to clip sooner or otherwise change the sound signal on purpose.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes there is, if you think you can hear a difference, go collect on Richard Clark's amplifier challenge.... USG

Have you read the terms of the challenge? I did.

What he's pretty much saying is that if the amps have identical topology and aren't clipping, they sound the same. Well, duh.

The "challenge" won't let you pit an 8W 300B SET amp against a 100W MOSFET amp.

That's because there's a screamingly obvious difference between the two. Don't take my word for it, listen for yourself some time. Be sure to go over the exclusions in his challenge; you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

And yes, I know a SET isn't "accurate," and that it introduces things to the signal, etc., etc. I've read most of that stuff. But you'll rarely see the tube bashers tell you that the amps sound bad or that they didn't enjoy them. There's just a narrow focus on the figures.

The colorations don't bother me for the same reason the same band sounds different in different venues. A performance outside in a park will sound different from the same set performed in a church. Live music is subject to all sorts of colorations and distractions. I might prefer a singer in a hall with lots of reverb as opposed to a studio that's acoustically dead. For the same reason, I like my music filtered through tubes.

Accurate reproduction is pretty much impossible. So I look at reproducion as an event in itself. Reproduction might not be exactly like live, but it can (and should) be enjoyed as much as possible.

 

[Burninate35]

I can understand most of the things that people say with burning things in, running headphones for a certain amount of hours. And of course different amps are going to sound different haha

There are a lot of things that many audiophiles think that many people think are myths.

I just do not get burning in cables. That one strikes me as... not possible.

If anyone would like to pm me and explain that one, I would love to understand it. It just sounds silly to me.

But then again when my mother told me that a man landed on the moon, I told her that she was a lier haha

 

[upstateguy]

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[upstateguy]

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[bobsmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry, you must be a believer.

Heh...actually I'm not really a believer nor a non-believer. I fall into the I don't really care category. The theory is that our minds may be powerful enough to convince us that we are enjoying a particular amp more, even if there is no objective sonic difference between them. In my view, the point of getting a nice amp is for my enjoyment. Thus, whether there is or is not an actual objective sonic difference between the amps is pretty much irrelevent. If my mind convinces me I am enjoying it, who am I to argue?

 

[upstateguy]

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[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have you read the terms of the challenge? I did. What he's pretty much saying is that if the amps have identical topology and aren't clipping, they sound the same. Well, duh. The "challenge" won't let you pit an 8W 300B SET amp against a 100W MOSFET amp.

That's why it's just stupid to say "all amps sound the same." It seems to me that what some folks really mean to say is that "two amps will sound the same provided that the following conditions are met: _____________." Or maybe they will say "two amps will sound the same within the limits of human hearing under the following conditions: ___________." Now some may argue what the conditions have to be, but when someone says "all amps sound the same," the thing that pops into my mind is "are you saying every tube amp sounds the same as every other tube amp and every other solid state amp"? Does that mean it's not possible for an amp designer to deliberately design an amp that sounds different than another amp? That just seems absurd.

I know this may seem trite, but if people are going to start an argument about this issue, which some folks seem to want to do, it would be helpful if they were a little bit more precise in setting forth exactly what they are saying (without referencing topics that are reserved for the Sound Science forum, of course).

 

[milkweg]

After reading that Richard Clark article I believe it enough to know that changing my Onkyo surround receiver to a Marantz surround receiver would be a complete waste of my money. No one makes a tube surround reciever so that is a non-contender too. I thought there was something to all this when I compared my Audiolab 8000A to my Onkyo SR505 just last week and could not tell the difference. A week before that though I compared my LunchboxPro tube headphone amp to my friedns Fubar iCute amp and we could both tell the difference. Not that one sounded better than the other but they had different sound sigantures and which one would prefer is purely subjective.

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif The "challenge" won't let you pit an 8W 300B SET amp against a 100W MOSFET amp.

Where does it say that?

Do most commercially available amplifiers qualify for this test, even tube amplifiers and class D amplifiers?

Yes. Nearly all currently available amplifiers have specs better than what are required for the test. Tube amplifiers generally qualify, as do full range class D amplifiers. It is not clear whether Richard Clark would allow sub amplifiers with a limited frequency response.