[macshooter]

Ok folks, I need your help.  YES, I did read every damn thing I could find about this here, and on the web...
 
I built a home studio, and I wanted some open backs for mixing and mastering (critical but not harsh)
 
I don't want to drop zillions of dollars for supreme phones (LCD-3)
 
I bought the K702 65th's, since they seem to be a good compromise between price and quality (though VERY overpriced, once I actually got my hands on them). They sound great.  I like more bass, but these are for mixing, not listening.  Detail is fabulous without being harsh.  My problem is I HATE the stupid rubber bands!  These are ~$400 headphones. You (AKG) are telling me a German engineer can't figure out to put some hooks so I can change these stupid rubber bands without having to take the godd@mn thing completely apart and risk breaking the cheap plastic bits when the stupid elastic gives out??!
 
Not happy about that.  But they are very comfortable and sound great.  (with zero isolation and 100% leakage...).  Anyway I'm here digging up how to fix the stupid rubber bands, when I find the K7XX massdrop.  1500+ sold so if I want one, gotta jump now.  So I did and now I will soon have 4 stupid rubber bands to replace...
 
I almost sent the 65ths back, I have a return in process on them, but just haven't dropped them in the mail yet.   I worry that the chinese version is even more likely to crap out (flat voice coils do that a lot?), but the price, and the window of opportunity made me think it's worth the risk.   The K702 65ths are made in Austria (as cheaply as they are made) and that's not gonna happen anymore, so I kinda hesitate to get rid of them.  But I'm afraid that one of the voice coils is going to go, and if that doesn't happen, the damn rubber bands sure the hell will.
 
Bottom line folks,  I would like to know from those who have had the 7 series for a long time, are these good phones over the long haul? Or should I send them back and get some DT990's/880's HD650's or something else?  (I really don't want to buy another amp to drive 600 ohm), I want to go straight out of my focusrite 18i20.
 
The K7xx are cheap enough to take a chance.  But the K702 65ths are REALLY pricey for what they are.   But they are the last of the Austrians.
 
Maybe with both sets, I can part together a frankenphone when they both crap out.  LOL.
 
Should I send the 65s back and get something better for the money?  Or are these really that good, and worth holding on to?
 
Thanks all.
 
-M 

 

[macshooter]

Ok so I guess I didn't read everything...   Jeezus Christ you guys don't mess around.  It'll take me a week to read all that.
 
I had them boxed up and ready to ship but I just couldn't do it.   I'm going to run them for a while and see if one of these new fangled flat wound transducer gives out.  If not I think I'm keeping them and make this into a 65th/K7xx massdrop comparo thread. 
 
Anyone got any ideas of the best way to do that?  I would like to stay away from subjective comments.  I got some mics.  I was thinking of putting a C414XLS in between the transducers set on omni, and then playing the bink audio test cd to measure the db output.  Perhaps flip it to measure both sides, but these are supposed to be matched transducers so I don't think that will matter.  But I don't know an easy way to produce a graph without going into excel. (which might be the way to go)   I could place the mic up against the pad of one side and dial in the gain to -6db or so (maybe more, who knows what I'll actually get) and leave the knob in the same place for both headphones.   Even if the frequency response isn't flat on the C414XLS, it's just a metric to see if the transducers are the same so it doesn't matter so long as it's the same mic on the same settings in the same place on both sets of cans.  I could do an alternate test with a Peluso P84 placed in the same location.  I may have to use an omni cap (even though the distance between the left/right transducers won't be exactly the same (though I suppose I could figure a way to do that) because of the proximity effect from the cardioid pattern might cause some serious distortion up close on the transducer. (much more bass)
 
I don't think the audio files would be of any use (other than to prove what I did), but if I can put the mics in exactly the same location and run test tones and produce a graph from that data, we can remove any subjectivity from the test.  
 
This sounds like a pain in the ass. Anyone got any better ideas?  Not even sure I can measure exact output in db in my DAW. (Live 9) but I also have PT11 (haven't used it yet since I just got it) so if anyone knows how to get the numbers easy in either DAW let me know.

 

[plakat]

Its actually Austrian engineers, not German
 
Regarding measuring headphones: thats no easy task... besides getting appropriate equipment, the procedure itself is rather complicated (i.e. use different positions on the measurement head, use an appropriate correction curve etc.). Just positioning mics between the drivers won't cut it, they need the seal around the ears to give their intended frequency response. In short: I'd stay away from that.
 
Regarding the rubber bands: they will give up eventually, but thats after many years. And no, the drivers won't break soon either... AKG is not doing that sort of voice coils for these models only, the driver at the heart of the K70x is rather old (about 2008, maybe even older). You'll have a fine headphone for many years ahead.
 
As far as the K7XX is concerned: Massdrop states its based upon the K702AE, so I'd say owning both is rather pointless besides the AE is made in Vienna and the K7XX is not. Though as a Viennese resident I don't want to say that, I don't think the PRC model has inherently inferior production quality. Moneywise I'd suggest sending your AE back and enjoy the K7XX at half the price, still a nice color scheme and, most important, also using matched drivers.

 

[PurpleAngel]

The K7XX are cheap enough to take a chance.  But the K702 65ths are REALLY pricey for what they are.   But they are the last of the Austrians. Maybe with both sets, I can part together a frankenphone when they both crap out.  LOL.
Should I send the 65s back and get something better for the money?  Or are these really that good, and worth holding on to?
Thanks all.

 
You do know the 2000 unit cut off for December delivery on the KXX happened a few days ago.
So the next 2000 unit batch is expected to be shipped in mid February.

 

[macshooter]

  Its actually Austrian engineers, not German
 
Regarding measuring headphones: thats no easy task... besides getting appropriate equipment, the procedure itself is rather complicated (i.e. use different positions on the measurement head, use an appropriate correction curve etc.). Just positioning mics between the drivers won't cut it, they need the seal around the ears to give their intended frequency response. In short: I'd stay away from that.
 
Regarding the rubber bands: they will give up eventually, but thats after many years. And no, the drivers won't break soon either... AKG is not doing that sort of voice coils for these models only, the driver at the heart of the K70x is rather old (about 2008, maybe even older). You'll have a fine headphone for many years ahead.
 
As far as the K7XX is concerned: Massdrop states its based upon the K702AE, so I'd say owning both is rather pointless besides the AE is made in Vienna and the K7XX is not. Though as a Viennese resident I don't want to say that, I don't think the PRC model has inherently inferior production quality. Moneywise I'd suggest sending your AE back and enjoy the K7XX at half the price, still a nice color scheme and, most important, also using matched drivers.

Howdy from Texas.  Yeah an Austrian engineer. (what's wrong with you people?)  
 
When I actually started to experiment with micing these phones (using 2 C414s on omni in between the cushions), I began to realize that in any case, placement of the mic is critical and must be exactly the same for the test to be good.  To say nothing of the seal on the the side of your head and that impact on the sound. I would have to create a membrane or a chamber of some sort which the mic would pass through and for the headphone to attach to that will eliminate leakage (save the leakage that occurs do to the open back design).
 
Perhaps styrofoam and rubber could be cut exactly right to fit both the mic and the earphones.  But then there are the physical limitations of the how wide of a space the headphones will accommodate for the microphone/chamber.  Not a big deal if you are talking about a C 414 where the condenser diaphragm points 90degrees from angle of the XLR jack. 
 
But that's a huge problem for a small condenser mic like the KM184/P84, which I think would be faster, have flatter response, and be more appropriate for this kind of test. (It is far too long to fit between the two earpieces (without taking them off the headband) so that the mic diaphragm is pointing directly toward at the transducer.)  I think maybe a chamber could be made with an opening on one side so the headphones could fit over it (to measure on side at a time)  and the mic could be inserted at a 90 degree angle using omni condenser cap instead of cardioid.
 
So long as the conditions are the same for the test (though not ideal) we could probably tell if there was a difference in the transducers used.  But there will be noise from the other transducer trying to get through the other side of the chamber, so you would have to turn off that side (pan it).   And if I did all that, I still don't see where I get db levels expressed a number (quantified) in my daw.  So maybe a decibel meter is a better tool for this experiment than a mic.  
 
Anyway it's a huge project with many flaws that would need to be worked out to tell this community if the drivers from the K7xx is the same as the K702 65ths...  Normally I'm up for stuff like that because it always turns out to be a learning experience.  But my time is limited. 
 
So... I think a subjective, "Yeah, they sound the same to me, I really can't tell any differences" or "Whoa, these sound a bit different in this or that part of the freq spectrum.) is better than my idea for a scientific attempt to look at it at this point.
 
Normally I would agree that having both is a waste. But it's always good to have a backup for everything when it comes to pro audio. Also if the Chinese ones turn out to be different or lower quality, then I will be glad I still have the 65ths.  If they are the same, then I will have spare parts.  (Though maybe not matching transducers if one of those goes out.)
 
I think I will try to mod them by drilling small holes in the plastic housing to accommodate a paperclip bend into the shape of a hook. Then epoxy/JB weld the paperclip hook into the holes.  Then I can use small springs which have loops at the ends to replace the rubber bands.  And if those cause noise or other issues, I can use still use hairbands of the appropriate size, instead of trying to take the damn things completely apart.
 

   
You do know the 2000 unit cut off for December delivery on the KXX happened a few days ago.
So the next 2000 unit batch is expected to be shipped in mid February.

 Nah, I got in at about 1500 on the first batch.
 
 
Sorry for the LONG post...

 

[plakat]

  Howdy from Texas.  Yeah an Austrian engineer. (what's wrong with you people?)  

 
Thats just kind of a local rivalry
But actually I like the fact that a part of headphone history was written in Vienna... AKG has a very interesting history.
 
If you really want to get into headphone measurements I'd check out Tylls articles at innerfidelity.com. He even started a series on measurements:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-measurement-procedures
 
Keeping both to have parts in case you need them is fine I guess. In my experience they are rather solid and won't fail you anytime soon though. Soundwise I'd not expect any relevant differences (except if your AE is of the later batches, sharing the K712 pads) as massdrop confirmed that the K7XX is based on the AE.

 

[macshooter]

Thanks for the good information! 

 

[macshooter]

If a picture is worth a thousand words...  
 
This is my grandmother.  She's 87.  She used to run a dance school in Salt Lake in the late 40's early 50's.  Now I have to pester her to keep her walker with her. She likes a couple fingers of Stoli Citrus and some juice. (so do I)  She sometimes can't remember something we talked about the day before.  But she can tell you the name of a Stan Kenton track from 1948 the instant she hears it. (I've been converting a lot of vinyl lately) 
 
Here she is listening to the The Swinging Sound of the Dr. Drew Podcast Volumes 1, Volume 2, and 3  (some groovy swinging jazzy stuff from the 60's) on the K702 65ths for the first time ever (hearing anything even near quality headphones)  What you are looking at here is pure joy.    She got up and started busting some moves, and then insisted that I join her, and then she showed me some steps.  (don't dance)  We danced in the kitchen for 15 mins with her instructing me, and chastising my clumsy moves.  That was worth every penny I spent on these and more.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
If the K7xx turns out as good as these, I'm in on the 3rd drop to get her a pair.  She absolutely loves them.

 

[Charlesbian]

nothing to say except your grandma is adorable. 

 

[macshooter]

  nothing to say except your grandma is adorable. 

Thanks. Yeah, she's often pretty cantankerous, so this was kind of rare special moment that snapped her out of her usual grumpiness. (we all know the magic of music and how it can transport you back in time, make you feel things you haven't felt in years, even remember smells etc.)    I and probably most of the people in here have laid down an embarrassing amount of money on this hobby, but I doubt many of us have experienced the flood of joy and memories that washed over her when I turned her on to the K702s.  I don't have kids.  But I think it was one of those moments like when your kid's eyes light up, with something new they've never experienced before, and you get to enjoy it too, vicariously, just as much as they do but in a different way just watching their reaction.  It was priceless.  (Actually in this case it cost about $370, not counting the amp or the phone or $24 I spent on those albums, which were totally worth it if you are old enough to have heard that kind of music as a kid. (and to "keep the pirate ship afloat" for those of you who know what I'm talking about)  But it's something I'll remember for the rest of my life.  Lucky that walkmans also double as cameras and phones etc these days.
 
About 7 year ago bought her a pair of white Senn PX100s, which she never used because she said that they were uncomfortable setting on her ears. (yeah I know, i have no idea...)  But she loved these. I have to agree they are the most comfortable headphones I've ever worn.  Perfect for this kind of music too.