[Kunlun]

Sometimes, a graph really does perfectly sum up an earphone and the main issue with its sound.
 
I've updated my review with a link to Inks' post.

 

[james444]

Quote:

You do admit that the k3003's mix of drivers is a compromise, even if a damn good one. If it's a compromise, then it does impair the sound, otherwise it wouldn't be a compromise. Not to push the point overmuch, but just to point out that maybe we aren't disagreeing so much as simply giving different values to a flaw we both hear. To you, it's a small problem (a compromise), whereas to me, it's larger.

 
Well, to be precise, I said all IEMs I've heard felt like a compromise in one way or they other, and the K3003 are no exception. For instance, I've found that vented IEMs offer the most realistic out-of-head soundstage, but evidently venting is detrimental to isolation. So every pair of IEMs has to compromise in that regard and prospective buyers need to decide what's higher up on their list of priorities. If it's isolation then they'll pick an Ety, Westone or Shure, if it's out-of-head soundstage they'll probably go for an FX700, EX1000 or FAD 160x.
 
That said, the way I see BA vs. DD driver technology is that BA have a technical edge in speed, clarity and detail, whereas DDs are usually superior when it comes to naturalness and timbre. Of course not everyone agrees on this point of view, but there seems to be some common consent among those who do, that DD's strengths are most apparent in the bass region. So, if you're going for a hybrid design, it only seems logical to combine a DD bass driver with mid/high BAs to get the best of both worlds. AFAIK no one ever tried it the other way round, BA for bass and DD for mid/highs, which kinda proves my point

. Well, now you have great clarity and detail from your BAs in the presence region, plus natural bass texture and timbre from your DDs, but of course those drivers have slightly different characteristics, like speed and transients, which can be construed as a lack of coherence. Long story short, even though the K3003 best all DD based IEMs I've heard in mid/high clarity and all BA based IEMs I've heard in bass timbre, they sure are a compromise, like any other pair of IEMs.
 
Quote:

I do want to say that I think a hybrid design could be very successful with a different choice of dynamic drivers than the one used in the k3003. I'm looking forward to more successful implementations. A more detailed, faster dynamic with careful tuning would make for a much better marriage between the two driver types.

 
Now, that's the point where we really seem to hear things differently, because I don't feel like the K3003's dynamic bass driver lacks speed or detail in comparison with other DDs. Take for instance my test track for speed:
 

 
Can't help it, I just don't catch the K3003's bass driver lag behind at any point.. and that's an extremely fast and complex track.
 
And here's another test track of mine, which I know very intimately because I've listened to it at least a several hundred times:
 

 
The K3003 render this track beautifully and neither the bass, nor any other instrument is lacking detail to my ears.
 
So overall, in my opinion the K3003's dynamic bass driver is definitely up to scratch, and even though there are undeniable differences between DDs and BAs in a hybrid design, the differences in the K3003 are negligible for actual music listening. As always, ymmv.

 

[DMinor]

Quote:

 
The K3003 is still an outstanding performer though, but just as the EX1000 has that 5.5k spike issue, these have this. 

 
Can you name any significant improvements over the EX1000?

 

[music_4321]

Five tracks where the K3003s seem to do 'reasonably' well in the low end & coherency departments:
 

 

 

 

 

 

[lee730]

Quote:

 
Can you name any significant improvements over the EX1000?

Treble is more refined, not nearly as peaky as the EX1000 is. Even with the treble filters I found them much easier on my ears. The mid-range is also a bit more intimate and less dry than the EX1000. I think I still preferred the EX1000 bass but the bass was still very good on the AKGs. I do agree on the coherency issue but it wasn't enough for me to not consider owning them at the time. I just felt disconnected at times from the music due to it. But the Tralucents put an end to that endeavor anyways.
 
@music, it all comes down to preference. Some will prefer a brighter sound, but brighter does not always equate to more detail and that is one thing many get wrong here.

 

[DMinor]

Quote:

Treble is more refined, not nearly as peaky as the EX1000 is. Even with the treble filters I found them much easier on my ears. The mid-range is also a bit more intimate and less dry than the EX1000. I think I still preferred the EX1000 bass but the bass was still very good on the AKGs. I do agree on the coherency issue but it wasn't enough for me to not consider owning them at the time. I just felt disconnected at times from the music due to it. But the Tralucents put an end to that endeavor anyways.
 
@music, it all comes down to preference. Some will prefer a brighter sound, but brighter does not always equate to more detail and that is one thing many get wrong here.

So Lee do you honestly think the huge cost difference justify the K3003 over the EX1000 if treble is not an issue for both? I know this is a silly question.

 

[lee730]

Well personally the EX1000s treble was a major issue for me. It completely ruined an otherwise good IEM in my case. Most others don't find it to be an issue however there are others as well who ran into issues with the treble. So YMWV. I'd much rather own the AKG3003 over the EX1000 but that is me.
 

 

[Kunlun]

Quote:

So Lee do you honestly think the huge cost difference justify the K3003 over the EX1000 if treble is not an issue for both? I know this is a silly question.

You're asking Lee, but I'll say that the Ex-1000 is very nice and that the law of diminishing returns is also bolstered by the k3003's slow bass driver being unable to keep up with the midrange and treble armatures. So, no, the k3003 isn't worth the huge cost difference.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

You're asking Lee, but I'll say that the Ex-1000 is very nice and that the law of diminishing returns is also bolstered by the k3003's slow bass driver being unable to keep up with the midrange and treble armatures. So, no, the k3003 isn't worth the huge cost difference.

Or Dminor could buy my MDR-7550s lol. I find them better than the EX1000 and an excellent sounding IEM. Just I am extremely tempted to try those REO272s with the Studio V 3rd ANV now....

 

[DMinor]

Quote:

Well personally the EX1000s treble was a major issue for me. It completely ruined an otherwise good IEM in my case. Most others don't find it to be an issue however there are others as well who ran into issues with the treble. So YMWV. I'd much rather own the AKG3003 over the EX1000 but that is me.
 

 
haha Lee you try to beat around the bush. My assumption was "if the treble is not an issue".
 
Quote:

You're asking Lee, but I'll say that the Ex-1000 is very nice and that the law of diminishing returns is also bolstered by the k3003's slow bass driver being unable to keep up with the midrange and treble armatures. So, no, the k3003 isn't worth the huge cost difference.

 
This is NOT what I want to hear.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

@currawong, if you tip roll the k3003, make sure you don't cover the vents at the bottom of the nozzle. It will negatively affect the bass.

As to the treble, it is twfk bold but I I find it fantastic in its brassy tonality and one of my favorites I've heard. Also, contrary to some quotes copied from a head gear review, I found the k3003 excellent with all sub genres of rock music that I listen too. It's also the best low volume iem I've heard so far.

 
Thanks for the tip (pun not intended). 

 
Quote:

The issue with the K3003 is that the bass driver is noticeably slower than the BAs. It's kind of to be expected seeing as how BAs are naturally faster, but I think the generic, polymer-based dynamic driver needs to be more than average in speed, the case of the K3003, at least by a dynamic's standard. Use a more rigid rigid driver, with faster transients, less midbass and it will become more coherent. 
 
The K3003's CSD portray that speed difference clearly. 
 

 
The K3003 is still an outstanding performer though, but just as the EX1000 has that 5.5k spike issue, these have this. 

 
That looks, decay-wise (ignoring the frequency response, which looks a bit crazy to me), a lot better than most full-size headphones and I don't actually see anything wrong with the decay in the bass (though someone more experienced than I am would be better suited to comment on the graph). Don't forget most "bass" is mid-base in the ~50-150 Hz range. Also, at 20 Hz, which is, if you haven't forgotten, 20 cycles per second, in the 75ms time of the graph, you're seeing 1.5x an actual audio wave, if my math is correct, so it shouldn't decay any faster than what you're seeing, if that is what anyone is thinking.
 
Please note that any bickering between people (and replies to it) will be deleted on sight. I'm not going to PM people to explain why. Please have the sense to neither start nor reply to personal attacks or anything remotely like them.

 

[Anaxilus]

I think the EX1000 has more air, better separation and better micro detail resolution than the 7550 but there is the peak if it bothers you.  I'd say low volume listeners grab a EX1000 and roll tips.  High volume listeners go 7550.
 
Wrt the coherency issue, for me it's the sonic flavor or tonal qualities differentiating the two drivers that was most striking for me.  People are most sensitive to different things.  I've heard many BA's and many DDs and many here that have are familiar with the differences.  I know for myself, one of the most important aspects was to see how far AKG had come in their hybrid designs since the K340 so I definitely lasered in on that as a metric.   

 

[james444]

Quote:

So Lee do you honestly think the huge cost difference justify the K3003 over the EX1000 if treble is not an issue for both? I know this is a silly question.

 
It's not at all a silly question. Even though I don't have any noteworthy issues with both phones (treble, coherence, or otherwise), I think the K3003 aren't that much an improvement in sound quality over the EX1000 to justify the cost difference. However, the Sonys are more finicky to fit, more prone to wind noise and less isolating, which makes them far less suitable for outdoor use in my book. So, if mobility is a concern, the K3003 may well be worth it (though there are of course a lot of other choices in that price range that are similarly or even better suitable for mobile use).

 

[purrin]

Quote:

The issue with the K3003 is that the bass driver is noticeably slower than the BAs. It's kind of to be expected seeing as how BAs are naturally faster, but I think the generic, polymer-based dynamic driver needs to be more than average in speed, the case of the K3003, at least by a dynamic's standard. Use a more rigid rigid driver, with faster transients, less midbass and it will become more coherent. 
 
The K3003's CSD portray that speed difference clearly. 
 

 
The K3003 is still an outstanding performer though, but just as the EX1000 has that 5.5k spike issue, these have this. 

 
I wouldn't take that graph seriously without knowing the exact parameters under which it was generated. REW (the software tool used) isn't optimized for generating CSD waterfall plots in the 1-4ms range. It's more designed to measure room decay, which is on the order of hundreds of milliseconds. So basically a lot of the "CSDs" that we see from REW are bogus unless the operator really understands the math behind it. 
 
I actually had a discussion on my forum with John M. the designer of REW, and he gave me some pointers to how to get CSDs more along the lines of what I typically generate with my own customer written software. He was able to replicate very closely my CSD plots using my raw data which I supplied him, but he used a customized version of his program (obviously because he can tweak the code.) I'm not sure if the latest versions of REW are setup to do waterfall plots with headphones. It's possible though. But again, it would still require a lot of knowledge from the operator to get the settings correct.
 
The other thing I should mention is that IEM measurements do tend to create a lot extraneous junk in the low frequencies on waterfall plots. It very well could be related to the measurement couplers or tubes vibrating.
 
I haven't run enough tests yet to totally confirm, but I suspect a major difference between BA and dynamic drivers is distortion characteristics. BAs actually have very high odd order distortion, which probably accounts for their lack of texture. This is definitely a topic of interest and one that I will pursue more in the immediate future.
 
So perhaps, the question isn't necessarily one of lag or driver speed, but rather one of distortion characteristics which are completely different. Of course it's possible the the crossover design was simply miffed by AKG. This would be noticeable in step response measurements, which are typically used in time aligning tweeter / woofer impulse response for speakers.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

 
It's not at all a silly question. Even though I don't have any noteworthy issues with both phones (treble, coherence, or otherwise), I think the K3003 aren't that much an improvement in sound quality over the EX1000 to justify the cost difference. However, the Sonys are more finicky to fit, more prone to wind noise and less isolating, which makes them far less suitable for outdoor use in my book. So, if mobility is a concern, the K3003 may well be worth it (though there are of course a lot of other choices in that price range that are similarly or even better suitable for mobile use).

I actually really enjoyed the AKG3003s for portability while I was out an about. Something about them that made me really notice the music even with all the distractions which I really liked. Plus the form factor and looks were quite nice and I wasn't embarrassed wearing them in public or felt they drew much attention (unlike my Customs, MDR-7550 or IE80s with the silver cable ).