[McCol]

So I finally got them, and after in house usage, these are a masterpiece piece of gear for general consumer requirements.

As a Hi-Fi headphone, it sounds fair at 200-250$

Problem is - what is a Hi-fi headphone and who decides this?

I've heard supposed Hi-fi/specialist gear at high prices which sound terrible. Why is a general consumer headphone not Hi-fi? My headphone/earphones all have different sound presentations so where do they stand in terms of Hi-fi etc. Not having a go at you as such just not sure if as a community we get a bit wrapped up in these assumptions about products and where they stand in terms of customer base.

 

[WhatsHiFi]

As most people here I’ve been reading up on this thread since it started until I received my own pair. And I’ve never though of myself as “HiFi”, just interested in playing/listening to music and hopefully reach a higher ground of pleasure from each guitar stroke, cymbal hit and the joy from the musicians when creating their masterpiece. I’ve enjoyed in-ears from $20 up until my “end game” Z1R and Z507. I listen with 40-50% on iPhone and below are my conclusions if anyone want an somewhat unbiased opinion even thou I like iPhone and MacBooks.

Initially I bought both 1000XM and Q35 and found the Sony’s to give much more frequency range and joy in the sound. Bose seemed to add high to get the buyer a sense of clarity. But that generated from time to time to harsher highs in female vocals etc. So it was an easy win for the Sony’s.

Then came the APP and although the price was high $370 in Sweden they was ok with all what they delivered compared to everything else. These compared to AP was a steal for the consumer since the APs have always seemed cheap in sound but are so popular for the convenience. The Adaptive EQ and the ANC is so good for such a small package that if I needed to choose only one setup I would never choose anything else and this is also what I would recommend to everyone seeking new headgear now since they are down to $250.

I bought XM4 as an upgrade for the old 1000X but that is not such a game changer. The APP is still so good in tone and convenience that there’s really no need for the XM4 at least for me.

I also have Z1R and the Z507 which I run high-res audio on and this is such a joy to listen to when you really focus on just the music (Jazz/Prog Rock). But you need to go into the music to feel that your standing in the studio in front of the singer or next to the guitarist. Based on the mix, if your in front of the drummer or sitting at the kit yourself. Able to hear the wood hit the hi-hat or cymbal. For casual listening doing other stuff at the same time there’s “just” a better width or sound stage that most will not notice or care about.

So what about the APMs then? The build quality is superb! The fit is perfect at least for me. I can wear them for hours and almost forget about them. The sound is really good for most part, but the same thing that hit me with the Bose regarding the highs is once again an issue and gets to harsh. Also I notice that they have issues handling the bass drum on many of my jazz albums even thou they are totally different mixed. This I’ve never heard in either set before. I guess I need to check another pair when available. But for the normal consumer they will sound awesome with the width and sound stage. They will however sell millions not for the sound but for the singles that enjoy movies and don’t want to spend money and space on surround sound. This is the best experience I’ve had watching action movies like Mandalorian.

And since everyone seems to ask about value and sound compared to other sets, I will share some logic from my perspective.

As previously stated in Sweden the prices are as follows. Sort of four different tiers.

APP $250
XM4 $360 if your lucky
APM $800
Z1R $1300 new in a sale for me

The APP is the overall winner as I’ve said before. They got almost everything right but they of course miss the frequency range. I find it really hard to justify going up to the Sony’s since they just give and extra level of sound and NC.

The APM is the best to get if you also would like to enjoy movies and such and don’t mind the lesser portability and being afraid that they can be damaged. The build quality is unbeaten when comparing Bose or Sony. The case is horrible and I’m afraid the mesh will not stand the test of time. They should not be compared to XM4 since they are in a different league and price range. But they also deliver a totally different sound and width.

However, I do not feel that they have a chance to be compared to something like Z1R. I cannot hear the whole range of the guitar or each nuance of the full drum stroke. And I will never exchange them for losing that experience. I would never recommend them for someone not deeper into music or as said before, want to use them for more like movies etc. APP is still the best all around and if you got the money why not buy both? As long as you don’t expect to reach wired excellence.

If they would cost $550 here in EU then they will definitely be a steal just as the APP and I think that they will be a new standard and game changer. But probably v2 since they still use the old H1 and they need some more bells and whistles.

 

[Ilomaenkimi]

Just for Comparison, Finish Valco VMK20 measurement, that's something...
For 169euros:

https://valco.io/

 

[murphythecat]

Problem is - what is a Hi-fi headphone and who decides this?

I've heard supposed Hi-fi/specialist gear at high prices which sound terrible. Why is a general consumer headphone not Hi-fi? My headphone/earphones all have different sound presentations so where do they stand in terms of Hi-fi etc. Not having a go at you as such just not sure if as a community we get a bit wrapped up in these assumptions about products and where they stand in terms of customer base.

what is hi-fidelity? its been well established for now

considering Apple im sure could have developed a hi-fidelity driver, why does everyone seem to defend the clearly overpriced APM?

 

[Bigtime Audiophile]

since your a newbie here, Ill suggest either you dont have enough power for the hd6xx or you like U shape response which the airpods max have
the hd6xx series spank the promax its not even a debate

Okay so can you describe for me why you like the HD6XX so much better than the AirPods max and can you let know which tracks you used to test?

 

[tkddans]

It’s great to see so many different takes on the APM coming in. There are many different interpretations of the tuning it offers.

One difficult thing about this discussion is that most of us probably do not own a wide variety of hifi headphones beyond one or a few at most. And for those of us who have had the chance to least try other hifi gear at meetups and such, we have to compare the APM to that other gear by memory.

So what we end up having to do, at least me, is to share what we like about the APM and what it can do for us compared to our existing gear. All the while, it may very well be that another pair of headphones exist that cover our APM’s strengths but with greater performance and taste.

And I think if the critics take the time to read what’s been said so far, it’s been quite mundane actually, and not preposterous ignorant claims at all. All APM experiences shared have really said is that they enjoy them. That’s it. People who have a longtime favorite Hifi headphone have said they enjoy the APM, but haven’t really done anything as worthy of criticism as saying they just “beat” some hifi outright. It’s usually something far simpler and personal, like saying it sounds more enjoyable or it brings something to their experience they didn’t have - be it convenience of having portable headphones or a missing tuning in their life.

At the same time let’s not completely dismiss their preferences and judge them as ignorant. Finding hifi headphones we enjoy enough to keep isn’t guaranteed at all in the hifi world. I’ve easily tried on and put down headphones with rigs that altogether cost around $2000-4000. Price buys performance in some respect, some R&D and rare materials, fine fine...but do you LIKE it?

Im also therefor growing concerned with these reviewers saying you can get better headphones for $100-200. Maybe for their personal criteria. Maybe they don’t enjoy anything unless the raw performance on a graph matches their audio engineering criteria, but listen to the music and tell me if those $100-200 headphones genuinely sound better in some way that you gravitate to, for one reason or another.

I may very well come to think so too, after I try the AKG K361, the 371, and the Drop Panda ($120, $150, $400, respectively). But I’ve already tried a few competitors at cheap price points which sound much worse for my taste. I’m losing patience for the encore of the same critique when the only headphones cited by reviewers as being better for cheaper...can be counted on one hand...in a market with countless other options at similar price points that are incomparably worse in taste or some quality compared to the APM. Meanwhile, I enjoy the APM more than more expensive headphones I have tried myself.

EDIT: Lastly, all of my takes on what’s sounds better are only for my ear. You do you. If you enjoy cheaper options more, all the power to you.

 

[mainguy]

As most people here I’ve been reading up on this thread since it started until I received my own pair. And I’ve never though of myself as “HiFi”, just interested in playing/listening to music and hopefully reach a higher ground of pleasure from each guitar stroke, cymbal hit and the joy from the musicians when creating their masterpiece. I’ve enjoyed in-ears from $20 up until my “end game” Z1R and Z507. I listen with 40-50% on iPhone and below are my conclusions if anyone want an somewhat unbiased opinion even thou I like iPhone and MacBooks.

Initially I bought both 1000XM and Q35 and found the Sony’s to give much more frequency range and joy in the sound. Bose seemed to add high to get the buyer a sense of clarity. But that generated from time to time to harsher highs in female vocals etc. So it was an easy win for the Sony’s.

Then came the APP and although the price was high $370 in Sweden they was ok with all what they delivered compared to everything else. These compared to AP was a steal for the consumer since the APs have always seemed cheap in sound but are so popular for the convenience. The Adaptive EQ and the ANC is so good for such a small package that if I needed to choose only one setup I would never choose anything else and this is also what I would recommend to everyone seeking new headgear now since they are down to $250.

I bought XM4 as an upgrade for the old 1000X but that is not such a game changer. The APP is still so good in tone and convenience that there’s really no need for the XM4 at least for me.

I also have Z1R and the Z507 which I run high-res audio on and this is such a joy to listen to when you really focus on just the music (Jazz/Prog Rock). But you need to go into the music to feel that your standing in the studio in front of the singer or next to the guitarist. Based on the mix, if your in front of the drummer or sitting at the kit yourself. Able to hear the wood hit the hi-hat or cymbal. For casual listening doing other stuff at the same time there’s “just” a better width or sound stage that most will not notice or care about.

So what about the APMs then? The build quality is superb! The fit is perfect at least for me. I can wear them for hours and almost forget about them. The sound is really good for most part, but the same thing that hit me with the Bose regarding the highs is once again an issue and gets to harsh. Also I notice that they have issues handling the bass drum on many of my jazz albums even thou they are totally different mixed. This I’ve never heard in either set before. I guess I need to check another pair when available. But for the normal consumer they will sound awesome with the width and sound stage. They will however sell millions not for the sound but for the singles that enjoy movies and don’t want to spend money and space on surround sound. This is the best experience I’ve had watching action movies like Mandalorian.

And since everyone seems to ask about value and sound compared to other sets, I will share some logic from my perspective.

As previously stated in Sweden the prices are as follows. Sort of four different tiers.

APP $250
XM4 $360 if your lucky
APM $800
Z1R $1300 new in a sale for me

The APP is the overall winner as I’ve said before. They got almost everything right but they of course miss the frequency range. I find it really hard to justify going up to the Sony’s since they just give and extra level of sound and NC.

The APM is the best to get if you also would like to enjoy movies and such and don’t mind the lesser portability and being afraid that they can be damaged. The build quality is unbeaten when comparing Bose or Sony. The case is horrible and I’m afraid the mesh will not stand the test of time. They should not be compared to XM4 since they are in a different league and price range. But they also deliver a totally different sound and width.

However, I do not feel that they have a chance to be compared to something like Z1R. I cannot hear the whole range of the guitar or each nuance of the full drum stroke. And I will never exchange them for losing that experience. I would never recommend them for someone not deeper into music or as said before, want to use them for more like movies etc. APP is still the best all around and if you got the money why not buy both? As long as you don’t expect to reach wired excellence.

If they would cost $550 here in EU then they will definitely be a steal just as the APP and I think that they will be a new standard and game changer. But probably v2 since they still use the old H1 and they need some more bells and whistles.

On that note I saw a reddit poster with the Z1R and he said the APM compare very favourably to them, and actually put them at the same level...I was skeptical but he included a pic or his collection and indeed the Z1R is there.

Who knows, I dont have them yet. The fact people are making the comparison says something at least. Nobody was comparing focal clears and Z1Rs to any 500 dollar headphone previously, so even if they dont match the 1k class (lets be honest, they almost certainly wont) they seem to be incredibly impressive

 

[tinyman392]

"Mids First" camp is the only camp I care about so that review is very interesting, mids are very hard to get right on any headphone imo.



I missed this comparison earlier, I have both the APM and Drop Panda on order, if I don't care about ANC would you say the Panda is the can to get for wireless audio?

Also you mention Audeze having relaxed midrange which I agree with, it's very smooth sounding, that being said, the LCD-2 for example was the first headphone I listened to that not only sounded warm but still retained a lot of detail, even micro details, often as you know detail is usually sacrificed a little with warmth, I'm not usually a a fan of warm sounding headphones but because the detail was still there they stayed in my collection, I will be very interested to see how detail retrieval is on the Drop Panda and APM on the mid-ranges frequencies in particular.

If you don’t care about the ANC and other features, the Drop would be the better headphone to get. I’d also recommend getting a headband cover for it as it can get quite uncomfortable after an hour.

 

[Bigtime Audiophile]

Problem is - what is a Hi-fi headphone and who decides this?

I've heard supposed Hi-fi/specialist gear at high prices which sound terrible. Why is a general consumer headphone not Hi-fi? My headphone/earphones all have different sound presentations so where do they stand in terms of Hi-fi etc. Not having a go at you as such just not sure if as a community we get a bit wrapped up in these assumptions about products and where they stand in terms of customer base.

You're asking a really great question here. I remember when I first started looking into "hi-fi headphones" and "audiophile" gear, there was a lot to learn. I had no idea what soundstage was, what separation was. But I quickly learned things like "big soundstage good, small soundstage bad" and "instrument separation good, less separation bad". Like it or not, there is a lot of culture involved in what hi-fi is supposed to be (and a big ass pile of M.F. snake oil).

For anyone lost in the quagmire, repeat after me; it's okay to prefer closed back headphones. Open back headphones aren't automatically superior. It's okay to enjoy a bit more of an intimate sound. Meticulous separation of every instrument does not automatically make for an enjoyable listening experience. It's okay to want a bit of bass emphasis. A neutral sound isn't automatically the be all and end all. What you hear is a billion times more important than any graph.

Trust your ears. Something doesn't have to be "technically hi-fi" to be the best listening experience you've ever had. And what's better than the headphones you enjoy more than any others? Nothing. Get out of your head (no pun intended). Enjoy the music.

 

[Ilomaenkimi]

Get out of your head (no pun intended). Enjoy the music.

Exactly. Sometimes you have to make long journey in to "hifi" and back, before you realize that!
If you're enjoying music, your gear is right for you. Price doesn't tell anything. Only thing that matters is your own preferences.

 

[angelom]

I’m listening to music right now on the P9’s and I find them to be several steps above the P7W’s (wired or wireless). I purchased the P7W’s for my girlfriend as a gift and a short while later I purchased the P9’s for myself and when I borrowed the P7W’s from my girlfriend to A/B them I felt bad at how much better the P9’s were compared to the P7W’s because I felt like I bought my girlfriend junk

We're disagree strongly here with difference in SQ between the p7w and p9. Saying the p9 is "several steps above the p7w" and 'I felt like I bought my girlfriend junk" is vast exaggeration. I prefer the p7w, not by a lot but is clear when I comparing both. Maybe in your case you're doing what you criticising in other people, that because a headphone is more expensive (p9) and less popular, then is much better than a more cheap and popular option (p7w). Maybe is a reason why the p7w is having better reputation than p9?

Going back to the AirPods, one thing I’ve noticed about the audiophile community is that people here are highly susceptible to placebo effects and they follow a herd mentality. The bashing of the AirPods Max comes as no surprise to me.

I'm agree with this and I see this is happening all the time too with bose headphones. I starting one of the 2 main APP threads in head-fi when the APP coming out in October last year. And in that thread I saying the sound is very correct, better than some big size headphones. In the beginning many people criticising, then measurements and more impressions coming and now is very different the opinion of APP by many people.

However, even when I have MacBook Pro, iPhone and iPad, and I having big expectations for the APM, and I think the APM having very good sound in general, in my opinion the APM isn't having the best sound of ANC headphones like people in this thread insisting so, so much. AND I can seeing that people that liking the APM in this thread are easily ignoring every aspect that people mentioning isn't (so) good or 'great', like comfort and weight (for some people), real portability, the mesh in the headband, or the placement of the 2 buttons that even Whathifi mentioning in their review (that I mentioning too in my comments a few days ago and is frustrating sometimes): "...and a dial inspired by the digital crown of the Apple Watch. The latter is a particularly neat and intuitive solution, although it is a little too easy to knock when adjusting the headphones, and its low resistance means you can accidentally adjust the volume by rather large degrees.")

Besides the P9’s I also own a pair of Bose QC35 II’s and while the P9’s are obviously better, if the Bose’s were my only set of headphone I really wouldn’t be sad, I can enjoy music on either set.

I too can enjoying music with the qc35 if is the only option I have and I still recommending this headphone for many reasons, but for me the problem always is the artificial leather that making my ears hot and sweating soon.

Apple is the biggest company in the world and collectively they have some of the world’s best engineers. I have yet to hear a laptop with better speakers than a MacBook

Yes, the speakers of the MBP are very good, specially in the 16-inch MacBook pro are very impressive.

Take a look at the build quality of the AirPods Max and compare them to other top of the line headphones. Even if you don’t care for the design of the AirPods Max you have to admire what Apple was able to produce at the price tag, besting headphone in build quality that cost 4x

B&O is having equal or better construction than the APM (h8, h9 & h95) and some of this headphones costing less than the APM (h8 & h9, and depending how you thinking about it and where you are living, even maybe the h95), so the APM isn't exactly the best in this aspect, even in some more cheap options.

 

[tkddans]

Another take...

AirPods Max Review: An Audiophile’s Perspective


EDIT:: By far the most detailed and comprehensive review of the headphones yet, regarding sound and all else. Love his breakdown.

 

[spinspin]

It is interesting that certain people, usually the people who are already invested in the apple ecosystem, will lower the wants and requirements of higher quality listening experience or a "hi-fi" experience.

I can see there more reason and emotion to fit the square peg of an apple headphone (APM) into the round hole of a hi-fi headphone.

We can use the same justifications of "i don't really need to hear all the details or much details", "it's fine is the bass if boosted", "the headphone sounds fine enough to me", "it's fun to listen to" etc.... and these rationalisations can be applied to the APM, and the also can be applied to a pair of 20 dollar ear buds, or a entry grade enthusiast headphone such as the m50x, and even a pair of beats headphones. All these same reasonings work and can be applied to any headphone you wish to use.

But that doesn't change that there are technical differences between each of the above mentioned headphones and other higher end headphones too.

Also the reasoning "it doesn't need to be hi-fi" can be applied to the APMs and any headphone you want.

Might be a nice time to remind:


high fidelity

noun

1. the reproduction of sound with little distortion, giving a result very similar to the original.
   "high-fidelity speakers"
   
   

You're asking a really great question here. I remember when I first started looking into "hi-fi headphones" and "audiophile" gear, there was a lot to learn. I had no idea what soundstage was, what separation was. But I quickly learned things like "big soundstage good, small soundstage bad" and "instrument separation good, less separation bad". Like it or not, there is a lot of culture involved in what hi-fi is supposed to be (and a big ass pile of M.F. snake oil).

For anyone lost in the quagmire, repeat after me; it's okay to prefer closed back headphones. Open back headphones aren't automatically superior. It's okay to enjoy a bit more of an intimate sound. Meticulous separation of every instrument does not automatically make for an enjoyable listening experience. It's okay to want a bit of bass emphasis. A neutral sound isn't automatically the be all and end all. What you hear is a billion times more important than any graph.

Trust your ears. Something doesn't have to be "technically hi-fi" to be the best listening experience you've ever had. And what's better than the headphones you enjoy more than any others? Nothing. Get out of your head (no pun intended). Enjoy the music.

 

[WhatsHiFi]

On that note I saw a reddit poster with the Z1R and he said the APM compare very favourably to them, and actually put them at the same level...I was skeptical but he included a pic or his collection and indeed the Z1R is there.

Who knows, I dont have them yet. The fact people are making the comparison says something at least. Nobody was comparing focal clears and Z1Rs to any 500 dollar headphone previously, so even if they dont match the 1k class (lets be honest, they almost certainly wont) they seem to be incredibly impressive

For me that is as stated not a valid nor fair compare as APM is lacking a lot of details if one (at least for me) listens closely. That is also why my intention was more to give my perspective on what one would get for their money’s worth. Since APP now are down to $200, should the APM come down under $400 I’m sure you cannot get anything that gives the user such material, UX and sound for their money. If one does not have or want to spend more then around $200 APP is really giving most of the same with the ability to keep them with you always.

One should set their pricetag and then accept what can be had for that money. APM is really something different to Bose and Sony’s in the same function range, but +$400 is quite a difference that probably needs to bring more than just some width and frequency range for most consumers. And no one should expect them to deliver like a +1K set, that’s not fair to Apple either. Either a H2 or some tweaks to the adaptive EQ will surely put them even higher up
on the list, but as of now they are IMO not tweaked as good as APP. They are in a totally different size/price range which should be able to do better. Still talking just about APP and APM here.

 

[McCol]

what is hi-fidelity? its been well established for now

considering Apple im sure could have developed a hi-fidelity driver, why does everyone seem to defend the clearly overpriced APM?

I'm well aware of what Hi-fi is my point being is that on various sites including this one there is a certain amount of snobbery around what perceive to be hi-fi or non hi-fi.

Overpriced in what in what way? Could say the same about any amount of supposed 'hi-fi' products.