[Ilomaenkimi]

^I'm just watching that video and it hit me: there's a sensor which measures your ear shape etc. and tunes the sound based on those, right?
Is this sensor working with ANC off? AND how are measurements done with APM? ANC off or on? How can measuments be accurate if sensors are modifying the sound constantly? Just wondering..

 

[msolok]

I'm sorry, I'm all for everyone having listening preferences and hearing differences. I'm the king preacher of sound is subjective and there's no right or wrong, but if you tell me with a straight face that the APP sound better than the APM, I will take NOTHING you say about any other headphone seriously. That's just a ridiculous claim in my opinion.

Like, I have said in this thread before, I don't have the APM so I can't comment on thier detail retrieval. Hell, I don't even have the APP (being on Android, I currently use the Samsung Galaxy Buds+ for portable listening, and my Microsoft Surface Earbuds for things like phone calls and when I need to hear what's going on).
My comments are coming from someone whom is trying to put together what the APM are, where they fit and all. One person says one thing, and then someone else comes across and categorically says they are wrong. Neither have really given any evidence either way, but simply says the other is wrong. Who is to be believe and why?

I said it above, and it's worth saying it again here, there seems to a lot angst that comes out when something not glowing positive is said about these headphones. It makes it very hard to actually work out what they are and what to expect.

 

[MayaTlab]

Like, I have said in this thread before, I don't have the APM so I can't comment on thier detail retrieval. Hell, I don't even have the APP (being on Android, I currently use the Samsung Galaxy Buds+ for portable listening, and my Microsoft Surface Earbuds for things like phone calls and when I need to hear what's going on).
My comments are coming from someone whom is trying to put together what the APM are, where they fit and all. One person says one thing, and then someone else comes across and categorically says they are wrong. Neither have really given any evidence either way, but simply says the other is wrong. Who is to be believe and why?

I'll link to that post and that image another time :
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/airpods-max.949152/post-16064061
(look at the standard deviation curves).

Baring excessive files or bluetooth compression, or poorly implemented DSPs, that's probably the main factor, ie whether or not the FR curve at your eardrum matches what your own anatomy makes your brain expects to hear and feel as "normal" or "right". It doesn't give a licence to HP manufacturers to make something that measures like crap (and there are lots of poorly measuring headphones), but it means that there is a bit of wiggle room particularly above 2000hz or so. If a pair of HPs interact with your anatomy in a way that creates significant peaks and nulls in the wrong place (ie where your brain expects something different), masking effects may take over and reduce your feeling of resolution.
For what it's worth I never felt that I was extracting more details with my pair of HD800 than with my pair of HD650 or Stax SR507 at higher frequencies, the only thing that I was hearing was sharp painful peaks masking "real" detail. But that's mainly because it and my anatomy didn't agree at all, someone else's might find them more resolving to them.
And I do find my pair of APP more resolving than most of the over-ears BT ANC headphones I've tried this year (but most of them have very poor FR curves to start with anyway, unlike the APP, and again - that's just because the APP and my anatomy seem to agree pretty well). Not that I find it amazing either in that regard.
No idea on how it compares or not to the APM as I don't have the latter, but given that both measure reasonably decently - well perhaps except the rather conservative 3000hz response of the APM, it should probably be a case of "hear it for yourself" and stop bothering about other's opinions.

 

[Ilomaenkimi]

Like, I have said in this thread before, I don't have the APM so I can't comment on thier detail retrieval. Hell, I don't even have the APP (being on Android, I currently use the Samsung Galaxy Buds+ for portable listening, and my Microsoft Surface Earbuds for things like phone calls and when I need to hear what's going on).
My comments are coming from someone whom is trying to put together what the APM are, where they fit and all. One person says one thing, and then someone else comes across and categorically says they are wrong. Neither have really given any evidence either way, but simply says the other is wrong. Who is to be believe and why?

I said it above, and it's worth saying it again here, there seems to a lot angst that comes out when something not glowing positive is said about these headphones. It makes it very hard to actually work out what they are and what to expect.

Because headphones are always very personal matter. No one can't tell which is good for you.
Only you can do it.

 

[MayaTlab]

^I'm just watching that video and it hit me: there's a sensor which measures your ear shape etc. and tunes the sound based on those, right?

No there isn't, he's wrong. That was the subject of some of Apple's patents but it didn't make it into the final product (that said the APM's design remains 100% compatible with these patents so it may come back in later iterations). It's just a fairly classic optical sensor :

What it uses is a microphone facing your ear, just like a lot of other ANC headphones, but possibly one with good fidelity across a broader frequency range :

Adaptive EQ works on top of the ANC to deliver a more or less constant FR curve, up to a certain frequency. My guess is that this cutoff point is higher than most competing ANC headphones but I'd be surprised if it went higher than 2000hz. Because of how the APP and apparently the APM behave when trying to measure them it's likely that Adaptive EQ is quite a bit more sophisticated and complex than the typical feedback mechanism on ANC headphones but I don't think anyone here knows what it does exactly .
The APM don't have any way to correct for your anatomy in the higher frequencies I believe. The least complicated mechanism I've read about to attempt at making some form of correction for higher frequency requires two microphones in the cup (AKG True Tone). The others are based on recognition of visual cues (imaging of the ear) and so far require a process external to the HPs (sending a picture of your ear to Sony's servers for example).

 

[Amrit-R]

Yes, even some light anc headphones are uncomfortable for me, independently of the plastic earpads problems I'm always having. The bose 700 is giving me uncomfortable feeling in the top of my head (this is a big surprise after the incredibly comfortable qc35), and even the more new sony model, xm4, isn't comfortable for me like my xm3 (when both are having almost identical design), my ears touching some part of the inside of the xm4 and feeling uncomfortable only after 10-15 minutes!

Closed headphones... Possibly a Shure SRH1540 might be more comfortable, but still closed. Closed headphones have their advantages, but they will get warm by design.

The APM clamping force reminds me of the Sennheiser HD600 & 650. Easily solved, though I dare not try it on the APM, someone else should try it first, and make a video of it.

If you can’t move to an open headphone, and you need a closed one. Maybe move towards in-ears.

I'm sure this is some kind of heresy to say...but...

I cannot tell the difference…at all..between Apple Music’s AAC, Tidal’s Hifi, and Tidal’s Master versions of any track I'm trying. This is on the HD 800 S with my wired Schiit setup.

I literally cannot tell the difference in noise floor, separation, anything on the frequency response, any instrument, nothing. Whether focusing on a single segment of track, or listening longer. I can't tell which one is better in any way. Can someone help me figure out what I'm supposed to hear different?

Then, I try APM and also can't hear a difference. Are all my opinions now invalid? haha

Agreed. If you try out some DSD/SACD files they appear to sound better, because they were remastered.. Transform such a file to AAC or MP3, and you get imo the same quality. (or at least 99%)
Still SACD’s can be worthwhile, because of the remaster.

I do use Qobuz though. Main advantage imo is the interface, located in Paris, so a different point of view. Ability to select genres. I can select for example Jazz, and it will be the only genre I see. The editorials/panoramas are also great.
At Qobuz they really love music, it shows.

 

[angelom]

you are absolutely right about the AP, for me it was the same, but my major problem with them is their complete lack of bass

I'm using my AP 95% for podcasts and telephone calls, and maybe 5% with youtube; the convenience of quickly putting in my ears or back in the case and portability is like nothing in the market. I think I'm lucky with the fit because I getting 'sufficient' mid-bass (obviously zero sub-bass) so that with the little music I'm listening the experience isn't completely disaster. I think too the brain is great instrument for adjusting quickly with the more low quality sound.

The APP on the other hand are really comfortable for me because they do not go far inside the ear canal. But this fact results to another problem of easily slipping away and losing seal. I resolved this problem with azla xelastec tips from a Hong Kong company which are really a marvelous creation making the APP to actually stick outside the ear canal and not move at all even when walking around.

I'm lucky that the fit is perfect always with the APP, no problems with the Apple factory tips losing a good seal. My idea is that I using the ANC for travels (plane & train), but when I comparing directly in a flight the APP, bose 700 and sony xm3, I deciding I'm keeping the xm3 only for the anc in travels (and hoovering at home).

But generally speaking all types of phones have their negative and positive points, no one is perfect for me, unfortunately. I prefer the sound of over ears but I can’t stand their heaviness, clamping force as well as heat especially during hot season in a hot country.

I'm very happy with over ears (my p7 wireless I have now for 4 years), and the heat for me is a big problem with the majority of bt/anc headphones if isn't having leather earpads. I selling the shure aonic 50 that is having very, very good sound quality for the heat and the sweat problems. For me if isn't leather earpads then is a (big) problem. I having big expectations with the AirPods Max (specially when for many months the name is AirPods Studio and the good sound of the APP before), but the earpads aren't good for me unfortunately, and the discomfort outside my ears (no problem with the top of my head, by the way). I don't mentioning this before but I'm sometimes getting a little negative reaction in my skin after using for more than 1-1,5 hours (I think this is because of little sweat interacting with the cloth material in the earpads that irritating my skin a little). I never experiencing before this reaction with leather or even with the artificial leather of the majority of bt/anc headphones.

 

[angelom]

Closed headphones... Possibly a Shure SRH1540 might be more comfortable, but still closed. Closed headphones have their advantages, but they will get warm by design.

Yes, the design of close back headphones is creating more heat than open back headphones, but in my case the heat of close backs with leather earpads is never excessive or so bad that making my ears sweating. Only with my p7 wireless, h95 and the h9 I can listening for 4/6/8+ hours consecutively without heat and/or sweat discomfort. (the problem with the h9 is the round ear cups don't fitting my ears well)

 

[Bompah]

Like, I have said in this thread before, I don't have the APM so I can't comment on thier detail retrieval. Hell, I don't even have the APP (being on Android, I currently use the Samsung Galaxy Buds+ for portable listening, and my Microsoft Surface Earbuds for things like phone calls and when I need to hear what's going on).
My comments are coming from someone whom is trying to put together what the APM are, where they fit and all. One person says one thing, and then someone else comes across and categorically says they are wrong. Neither have really given any evidence either way, but simply says the other is wrong. Who is to be believe and why?

I said it above, and it's worth saying it again here, there seems to a lot angst that comes out when something not glowing positive is said about these headphones. It makes it very hard to actually work out what they are and what to expect.

I'm going purely off memory here, so could be a bit off, but I think what this comes down to is the APP being more mid-forward and with a slightly more linear FR than the APM, so if you are more mid-centric in your preference you will consider it to have more detail, as the sounds and detail you prefer will be more available. However, with it being an IEM it has a harder time producing a proper soundstage and atmosphere compared to a pair of headphones. Just like a pair of headphones can’t really re-create the scale of a good pair of speakers (don't bite my head off, each are good in their own right, at their own things).

The APM on the other hand is more atmospheric and has more scale, with the deep (and slightly bumped) sub-bass, as well as a bit more sparkle in the treble. You may get a sense of more detail in some respects because the mids are a little recessed and so do not dominate the mix as much.

But I could be wrong, I haven't directly compared them and it has been a week or so since I last listened to music through the APP.

In terms of what the APM are, I'll repeat what I've said before:
They are enjoyable to listen to, they have a slightly bumped sub-bass and fairly sparkly treble but recessed mids, so V shaped. The timbre is fairly natural and they are pretty good for their category (Bluetooth ANC headphones). They do not punch above their weight, price, or class. They are not detail kings, they can't compete with a decent set of wired headphones, they are not exceptional as a headphone. But they are a great wireless ANC headphone for Apple users. I might try and compare them to my Meze 99 Classic (via my mDAC mini) at some point, as that would likely be an "apples to apples" comparison which could provide some value.

If others want to make them out to be more, that's on them.

 

[jude]

As I mentioned in a previous post, the Apple AirPods Max is one of the more interesting headphones to measure. We've been measuring the AirPods Max since it arrived a couple of weeks ago. We've measured it wirelessly and wired. (We'll be doing a final set of wired measurements soon, too.) We've measured it with ANC on and off. We've measured it at several different output levels. We measured it with music as the stimulus (using Audio Precision's Transfer Function Measurement functionality), stepped sweeps, continuous sweeps, pink noise, white noise. Here's an example of our notes from just some of the measurements in only one of several AirPods Max Audio Precision project files from the past couple of weeks (each line is a separate sweep/measurement, this one project file having 40 such entries):

Measurement observations so far:

• With ANC on and ANC off, the frequency response is the same.
• From 70 dBSPL to 113 dBSPL, the frequency response in any given seating remains essentially the same (see Fig.2 below).
• We get essentially identical frequency response measurements whether using continuous sweep, stepped sweep, or noise (pink and white) with Audio Precision's Transfer Function measurements.
• Using the Audio Precision Transfer Function measurements, the frequency response with music so far seems to track the swept-sine frequency response.
• Apple's claim of THD < 1% across the entire range (even at max volume) is accurate. With the headphone set to maximum volume, at -3 dBFS (as per Apple's specified test conditions) the AirPods Max's THD peaked at 0.731% at 342.237 Hz. Other than that peak, THD is mostly below 0.1% throughout the measured range (see Fig.3 below).

Following is the Apple AirPods Max frequency response (average of three seatings):

Fig.1 (above): Apple AirPods Max frequency response, average of three seatings.


Someone had asked if the frequency response changes at various output levels (which I thought was a good question). Following are frequency response measurements at 70 dBSPL, 90 dBSPL, 110 dBSPL, and 113 dBSPL:

Fig.2 (above): Apple AirPods Max frequency response (one seating, left channel only) at 70 dBSPL, 90 dBSPL, 110 dBSPL, and 113 dBSPL.


All of the frequency response measurements above were made using continuous sweeps.


Following are the Apple AirPods Max THD measurements at 90 dBSPL, 100 dBSPL, and 110 dBSPL. (I also posted this a few days ago.)

Fig.3 (above): Apple AirPods Max THD at 90 dBSPL (solid lines), 100 dBSPL (dashed lines), and 110 dBSPL (dotted lines).


I'll post my subjective opinions about the Apple AirPods Max at a later date, either in a post in this thread and/or in a video.

---

The measurements in this post were made using:

• Brüel & Kjær High-frequency Head and Torso Simulator (HATS) Type 5128
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer (with Bluetooth Duo Module)
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom-designed acoustic & vibration isolation enclosure

---

• 2021-01-04 02:53 EST UPDATE: Some measurements comparing the Apple AirPods Max to other headphones were added in this thread (links below):
  
  
  • Apple AirPods Max measurement comparisons to the Sennheiser HD650 and Sennheiser HD800S
    
    
  • Apple AirPods Max measurement comparisons to the Apple AirPods Pro

---

 

[tkddans]

As I mentioned in a previous post, the Apple AirPods Max is one of the more interesting headphones to measure. We've been measuring the AirPods Max since it arrived a couple of weeks ago. We've measured it wirelessly and wired. (We'll be doing a final set of wired measurements soon, too.) We've measured it with ANC on and off. We've measured it at several different output levels. We measured it with music as the stimulus (using Audio Precision's Transfer Function Measurement functionality), stepped sweeps, continuous sweeps, pink noise, white noise. Here's an example of our notes from just some of the measurements in only one of several AirPods Max Audio Precision project files from the past couple of weeks (each line is a separate sweep/measurement, this one project file having 40 such entries):



Measurement observations so far:

• With ANC on and ANC off, the frequency response is the same.
• From 70 dBSPL to 113 dBSPL, the frequency response in any given seating remains essentially the same.
• We get essentially identical frequency response measurements whether using continuous sweep, stepped sweep, or noise (pink and white) with Audio Precision's Transfer Function measurements.
• Using the Audio Precision Transfer Function measurements, the frequency response with music so far seems to track the swept-sine frequency response.
• Apple's claim of THD < 1% across the entire range (even at max volume) is accurate. With the headphone set to maximum volume, at -3 dBFS (as per Apple's specified test conditions) the AirPods Max's THD peaked at 0.731% at 342.237 Hz. Other than that peak, THD is mostly below 0.1% throughout the measured range.

Following is the Apple AirPods Max frequency response (average of three seatings):


Fig.1 (above): Apple AirPods Max frequency response, average of three seatings.


Someone had asked if the frequency response changes at various output levels (which I thought was a good question). Following are frequency response measurements at 70 dBSPL, 90 dBSPL, 110 dBSPL, and 113 dBSPL:


Fig.2 (above): Apple AirPods Max frequency response (one seating, left channel only) at 70 dBSPL, 90 dBSPL, 110 dBSPL, and 113 dBSPL.


All of the frequency response measurements above were made using continuous sweeps.


Following are the Apple AirPods Max THD measurements at 90 dBSPL, 100 dBSPL, and 110 dBSPL. (I also posted this a few days ago.)


Fig.3 (above): Apple AirPods Max THD at 90 dBSPL (solid lines), 100 dBSPL (dashed lines), and 110 dBSPL (dotted lines).


I'll post my subjective opinions about the Apple AirPods Max at a later date, either in a post in this thread and/or in a video.

---

The measurements in this post were made using:

• Brüel & Kjær High-frequency Head and Torso Simulator (HATS) Type 5128
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer (with Bluetooth Duo Module)
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom-designed acoustic & vibration isolation enclosure

---

Just fantastic. Thank you so much!

 

[JonFo]

Someone had asked if the frequency response changes at various output levels (which I thought was a good question). Following are frequency response measurements at 70 dBSPL, 90 dBSPL, 110 dBSPL, and 113 dBSPL:

Wow, that's a near-perfect power curve !!!

That and the consistently (and very) low THD across the board point to the HUGE advantage of computational audio in a vertically integrated design. The DSP either has a map, or more likely, a model of the responses at various levels and is dynamically adapting the output to maintain target FR and THD points.

Any transducer system with a power curve that consistent is a winner (assuming a decent FR to begin with). These metrics confirm everything I hear from the APM.

 

[pkcpga]

Yea I can accept a different opinion. I'm still just wondering what the APM owners here feel about it. I feel like the APM have soul where the others are soulless! heh
(e.g. the K361/K371)

It's just a difference of opinion like you said. And now I'm simply curious what others feel too on the forum. Typing online is difficult. I don't mean to come off as dismissive of these reviewers' personal experience. More just...confused and expressing that here.

I prepurchased the AirPod Max, very excited to get them. I listened to them for about a week before returning them. It’s hard to spend that much money on a wireless headphone when a wired headphone for $300 will sound drastically better and many wireless headphones fir half the price sound very similar. I typically listen to ZMF verite closed or Focal Utopia or Stellia. So switching to the AirPod Max from something like these I guess I could say the AirPod Max is soulless but more likely I’d just say it has poor dynamics and sounds very muddy with bass bleeding very badly into the mids. Vocals sound congested and then when the fake 3d sound kicks in there’s a floor hiss noise that bothers my ears after a while. Plus come on Apple why can’t I turn these off without using the damn ugly non protective case? For the AirPod Max’s I think it depends what you are used to listening to, most Bluetooth headphones are not great right now. But also most people aren’t comparing them to a 10k set up which really isn’t fair, although people like myself and some of these reviewers can’t help but compare them since they jump into the price range of hd600’s, 650’s, Audeze lcd’s and other respectable wired headphones price range. If they were $350 I probably would think they sound slightly better then the Sony’s or Bose. But I’d still say the Bose’s vocals are cleaner and have less bass bleed. Ultimately it’s your ears that need to decide. I did not have comfort issues with the AirPod Max’s unless I left them on for more then two hours, then my ears sometimes became sweaty but no clamping issue. This has happened with other well sealed closed headphones so not just APM thing. I do not have a large head though more standard sized. My biggest issue is Apple didn’t do anything to play better quality music through Bluetooth or clean up the sound, instead they masked the sound with a fake 3d effect that causes a background noise. Once heard you can not unhear. So yes they sound very slightly more interesting then the Sony’s but to me it’s a toss up with the Bose. The closest thing to the APM in wired would be a more muddy version of the Meze 99’s.

 

[MayaTlab]

Following is the Apple AirPods Max frequency response (average of three seatings):

Thanks a lot Jude. I've tried to find other measurements done in Head-fi's lab on the same setup for other over-ears but I couldn't find them, only the ones you made for IEMs in the original thread about B&K's latest HATS. Any link I should follow where I could get my hands on a few of them ?

 

[jude]

Thanks a lot Jude. I've tried to find other measurements done in Head-fi's lab on the same setup for other over-ears but I couldn't find them, only the ones you made for IEMs in the original thread about B&K's latest HATS. Any link I should follow where I could get my hands on a few of them ?

Later I'll throw in a couple of well-known headphones measured on the 5128 for comparison. We've measured a lot of gear on the 5128 and will be sharing more of it soon.